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Author Topic:   Slavery: Christian Excuses
frako
Member
Posts: 2823
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 46 of 82 (654863)
03-05-2012 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by mike the wiz
03-05-2012 7:38 AM


Re: Repugnant!
sin is more abundant than ever, it's is just "limited" by laws, but people still rape, murder, and usually those persons are not going to be people that have been born again, and have the Holy Spirit.

Im willing to bet most people in prison in the UK are Christian

How could you, being genuinely born again, do such acts?

Well you say god told me to rape women and quote a passage from the bible to ease your mind then go on a reaping spree.

Do murderers and rapists turn up at church on a Sunday?

You would be surprised how many do

What got the prisoners in jail? Was it reading the bible?

And lets not forget all those child molesting PRIESTS who dont go to jail because they serve the LORD

So by lumping me in with the "religious", sure - you can pretend I would allow slavery, you can pretend I would burn a witch, but REALITY shows another picture.

Yea because the Christians who owned slaves and burned witches where not Christian in reality they where led astray by the devil right.

You make out I am bad and you are good.

Nope im saying if you follow your bible to the letter you cant be good you can be a socio path.

You use the epithet, "religion", but I am not in that group, there are atheists that are much more religious than me.

there are non believers in magic who believe in magic more then you do?

You forget that the reality of Christ in your life is not another false religion, you no longer are a slave to sin, but a slave to God.

Well you go and be a Slave to whatever you want il remain free and think for myself.

Largely, these religious histories will have been driven by atheists, in that they were atheist to being born again. Even Muslims, seeks, Budhists, etc....come under "atheist" to us, because they are in the same position as the atheist, according to scripture.

Dont go putting the word Atheist where it does not belong say not born again not Atheist an atheist is a lack of belief, not wrong belief.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by mike the wiz, posted 03-05-2012 7:38 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by mike the wiz, posted 03-05-2012 8:16 AM frako has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4662
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 47 of 82 (654864)
03-05-2012 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by frako
03-05-2012 8:02 AM


Re: Repugnant!
Like I say - I am defending the Word of the Lord concerning those who are genuinely born again of the spirit, who are no longer slaves to sin. If you want to genuinely believe I am posting this message from jail, then I pity you.

Im willing to bet most people in prison in the UK are Christian

I am sure they are. It's a very comfortable name-tag. I myself do not like to use the term, "Christian" because it is so wide a definition, that satan can be one.

An atheist is a disbelief in gods. Even atheists like Dawkins call people like me an atheist, in that I disbelieve in many gods. My point was that to those of the body of Christ according to the scriptures, everyone outside of the body of genuine believers, is atheist, in that they have not believed genuinely, in Christ.

It is easy to show people who proclaim belief, and they might have some perverse head-belief in the bible, but in reality they are USING the bible to justify their sins. I appreciate how it looks to people like you, I know they bad examples, but really they don't believe, I know this, because I know that a truly born again person is transformed. There are many prisoners who become genuinely born again and never commit the same crimes again, I have heard many testimonies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by frako, posted 03-05-2012 8:02 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by frako, posted 03-05-2012 8:22 AM mike the wiz has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2823
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 48 of 82 (654865)
03-05-2012 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by mike the wiz
03-05-2012 8:16 AM


Re: Repugnant!
I appreciate how it looks to people like you, I know they bad examples, but really they don't believe, I know this, because I know that a truly born again person is transformed.

So what your trying to say they dont believe the right way or should one say your way, do you think they could be claiming the same of you that you dont believe the right way or their way.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by mike the wiz, posted 03-05-2012 8:16 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4662
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 49 of 82 (654866)
03-05-2012 8:23 AM


Final Comment.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/...02/feedback-bible-slavery

I read this article. Sadly, the atheist chosen to omit, dishonestly, many scriptures that would support my claim that slavery in the bible was not the harsh slavery of the epithet used.

It's sad that people who claim great morals, could not do the courtesy of including the scriptures that would not favour their in take on the bible.

To read what I mean, you have to scroll down to the scriptures that are quoted. The "slavery" in the bible, was clearly not the same thing as you want it to mean if we read ALL OF SCRIPTURE.

I make it a rule to interpret scripture based on the WHOLE of scripture, so we have to collectively look at all circumstances and instances of slavery, and what God's plan was.

Please read all of the article, I would say my own position is that of the person who written the article.


Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4662
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 50 of 82 (654867)
03-05-2012 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by frako
03-05-2012 8:22 AM


Re: Repugnant!
It's not my way though. If you genuinely seek to understand the bible, and what it says, then you will realize that the only way you can be a believer and carry on sinning, is to TWIST the bible, and take statements from the bible, by quote-mining. The fruit of the spirit for example, how did the criminals answer for that one?

For example, the Jehovah's witnesses have their own bible so that they do not say that Jesus was God.

It very easy to say you are a Christian, and be a complete twurp about the bible, by misunderstanding the scriptures, but if you actually read the Gospels you will see that even Jesus said that many would come in His name and He would say to them, "depart from me, workers of iniquity".

We know them by their fruits. If they justify their sin, in jail, by quoting scriptures, do you seriously believe that a study, and in-depth study of the scriptures, would support what they say?

There are a thousand different "institutions" of Christianity, that do not hold to the scriptures because of many misunderstandings of the scriptures. When you truly are born again, you are effectively saying that you are no longer the god of your own life. So urges for crimes, fleshly lusts, etc... there is no room for te old ways. The scripture says, "if you walk in the spirit, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh".

Every crime could be called, "carnal" or "fleshly", and the NT says that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

It is very hard for me to explain this to you adequately, because I read the bible every day of my life, but I don't remember the scriptures in my head, I only meditate on them, I remember the teachings but I can't pull chapter an verse. I don't want to pull chapter an verse, Iwould much rather you read it with an open heart.

Read some of the small letters from Paul, Frako, the teachings concerning the flesh, the carnal, natural man and the spiritual man, just read a little letter, and after watching those videos, as you start to read the scriptures, you will start to think; "Hang on a minute, if you take these scriptures seriously, you can't in no way go out and do the opposite or there is no way you believe what is being said".

I have to go now, I only request you yourself do not read what people say the bible says, but that you read it for yourself, and see if it is telling us to be our own god, to obey carnal desires. For all desires that are sin, are usually carnal. Even the people here, in this topic, have omitted the scriptures vital to the argument about slavery, so I would say to you, read them all, without being cynical - just glance through them, and even "pretend" they are real, pretend there is something more to them. I will pray that the eyes of your heart may be opened.

Rapists for example, Jesus said not to lust in the heart. The letters from Paul say not to walk in the flesh but be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

I'm not saying that genuine believers can't sin, I am saying that where their lives are nothing but sin, it is obvious that they are phony.

I reiterate that I totally appreciate the hatchet-job claimant-Christians do to the bible. They make it seem like the bible is condoning them. All I ask is that for the sake of honesty, you don't let them get away with it, after all, would you want to HELP their cause?

It is clear you hate these people, child rapists, that call themselves Christian - why should you HELP those people by believing them?

I personally am encouraged that you do have morals, that you can see through them. I appreciate atheists in my life, a lot of them are very moral and honest - but I just don't want you to be deceived.

I've tried to take time to talk with you and not run away from anything anyone has said, it's a shame there aren't many believers at places like this, I hope you can take something from the words I have said, it is like trying to eat a meal with hands tied behind my back and a gag in my mouth, it is very, very difficult to have the sole responsibility when I myself am inadequate, I do not have omniscience.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 82 (654872)
03-05-2012 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by mike the wiz
03-05-2012 8:23 AM


Re: Final Comment.
I read this article. Sadly, the atheist chosen to omit, dishonestly, many scriptures that would support my claim that slavery in the bible was not the harsh slavery of the epithet used.

As anyone familiar with the Old Testament, or willing to do a little bit of research can verify, there is more than one type of servitude described in the Bible. For example, we know that the servitude of the Jews under the Egyptians was some kind of indentured relationship even if it did include harsh treatment. On the other hand, we know that captured enemies could be enslaved, and that such relationships were quite different.

But we also know that the Bible describes other forms of slavery in which descendants could be sold, and in which severe beatings could be administered. I'd be more than happy to make the detour to present some such scriptures, if Dr. Adequate had not already done much of the work, and if it weren't for the fact that you are doubtless aware of that yourself.

I'm not an atheist. I'm a Christian. But I don't have any reason to deny the truth. The Old Testament describes some practices that are impossible to defend under our current standards, and which no man of conscience would try to defend. And then there comes mike the wiz attempting to do what no atheist would ever do. I imagine if I were in such an untenable position, I'd look for my hidey hole.

I'll also note that the answers in genesis article does not hesitate to denounce "harsh slavery" even though you don't seem quite able to do so. But in fairness I'll also note that most of their analysis glosses over the OT references to slavery, while other parts of their analysis concentrates on metaphorical uses of the term "slavery" in the New Testament.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6879
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 52 of 82 (654873)
03-05-2012 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by anglagard
03-05-2012 2:24 AM


Bump for Mikey
anglagard writes:

Are you in favor of human slavery or not?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Why am I not surprised Mikey ran from this question as fast as he could?

Come on Mikey grow a pair and answer the question.

Edited by Theodoric, : spelling


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


(7)
Message 53 of 82 (654924)
03-05-2012 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by mike the wiz
03-05-2012 6:44 AM


Re: X
Firstly, I gave the first answer/(1) because nowadays we have a better system.

Then apparently the system instituted by man is, even on your own estimation, better than that instituted by God.

In reality, God destroyed man from the earth in the flood. Now, He can choose a people, and put up with them to an extent, and their ways, to an extent, or, He can destroy them, but no matter what He does, they will not be fully righteous/moral.

The bible, allowed slavery, but this says more about the people of the Old Testament than God. God's permissive will is weaved into the bible on an unequivocal scale. He "permits" certain activities, usually for His own reasons.

But there's a difference between putting up with our wrongdoing on the one hand, and on the other hand not even dropping a hint that it is wrongdoing and that he's against it. Somewhere in between forbidding the eating of lobsters and the wearing of mixed fabrics, God could have said that slavery was a bad idea, and if it was not his desire to compel men to virtue, he could at least have pointed them in the right direction.

Look at Abraham. According to the Bible, at God's command he was willing to sacrifice his own son, and to circumcise himself without benefit of anesthetic. So maybe God could have said to him: "Ixnay on the slavery". Would Abraham really have said: "No, look, sacrificing my own son, fine. Cutting bits off my penis, painful, but I did it. But now you're asking me not to own people as property and that's more than flesh and blood can bear. God Almighty or no God Almighty, this is where I draw the line."

I might post a link, as to AIGs opinion on this, as they are more informed than I, on this issue, I myself can't refute the term, "slave" at this time, but I still think it is mostly an epithet, because of examples of a certain idea people get, I still think there would have been differences in biblical slavery.

What are you talking about? They were people owned as property. This is slavery.

I think your position as moral relativists ...

... is something you've made up. I am not a moral relativist. I have a system of morals, I just don't try to justify it on the basis that I have an invisible friend who agrees with me.

So you say there is no real wrong, no objective wrong ...

No I don't.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by mike the wiz, posted 03-05-2012 6:44 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2567 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 54 of 82 (654988)
03-06-2012 10:00 AM


funny
what is super funny is that if you look at the "is America a christian nation" thread you read about the founders (aka the slave holders), and you come to the realization that they are NOT christian, and then there is a gem like this thread who wants to point the blame at the christians...oh the silly logic that is EVC. LOL

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by subbie, posted 03-06-2012 10:32 AM Artemis Entreri has responded
 Message 58 by Rahvin, posted 03-06-2012 2:51 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(3)
Message 55 of 82 (654991)
03-06-2012 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Artemis Entreri
03-06-2012 10:00 AM


Re: funny
That would be incredibly silly if someone were arguing that only Christians are to blame for slavery. Since nobody is making that argument, this is just another all snark and no substance post from you.

I assume you're still running scared from my challenge in Message 117.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Artemis Entreri, posted 03-06-2012 10:00 AM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Artemis Entreri, posted 03-06-2012 1:41 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2567 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 56 of 82 (655012)
03-06-2012 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by subbie
03-06-2012 10:32 AM


Re: funny
LOL dream on

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by subbie, posted 03-06-2012 10:32 AM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


(1)
Message 57 of 82 (655020)
03-06-2012 2:48 PM


Moral relativism/absolutism
I find it kind of strange Mikethewiz used some kind of weird absolute version of moral relativism in his answers to why slavery is in the bible. If God exists, he can't use it moral relatvism, if he does, he assumes no absolute morality created by God exists,and by extension, God as he knows him doesn't exist. The topic about, that in a literalist view, God's absolute morality allowed for this grave sin, while avoiding it would have been in His power for sure, since he liberated them from Egypt, led them through the desert, and later on, let's the country flourish and delay like a Yo-Yo, at will, and yet slavery cannot be avoided, or taught as the grave evil it is?

I know he is just trying to make a point by using aburdism, but his mixing of strawman moral relativism to, in his mind, logically disarm atheists, and his own justifications of slavery in God's absolute morality at the same time, make for a very incoherent argument. I object to mixing those approaches when it just happens to his argument's advantage. You can't have both ways.

If you happens to return to the topic Mike, just use one consistently. Not to mention most normal secularists don't use this kind of moral relativism, and all Christians also don't, so there's no point in using it.


  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 58 of 82 (655021)
03-06-2012 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Artemis Entreri
03-06-2012 10:00 AM


Re: funny
what is super funny is that if you look at the "is America a christian nation" thread you read about the founders (aka the slave holders), and you come to the realization that they are NOT christian, and then there is a gem like this thread who wants to point the blame at the christians...oh the silly logic that is EVC. LOL

What is super funny is that if you look at the actual subject of this thread you read about how the Bible condones slavery, and then you come to the realization that discussing Biblical support for slavery is NOT the same as claiming that the Bible is the source of all slavery, and then there is a gem like Artemis who wants to build up a strawman to mock...oh the silly "logic" that is every post made by Artemis, ever.

Copying what passes for you as sentence structure is painful. Please retake a remedial English course.

Asking you to make well-reasoned posts would be too much.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Artemis Entreri, posted 03-06-2012 10:00 AM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Artemis Entreri, posted 03-08-2012 1:40 PM Rahvin has responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3123
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 59 of 82 (655184)
03-08-2012 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by anglagard
03-04-2012 4:54 AM


Re: Amendment of Ridiculous
May I ask which part? Or, if willing to divulge, which college in Texas?

State University at San Marcos


This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3123
Joined: 08-11-2004


(1)
Message 60 of 82 (655185)
03-08-2012 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Trixie
03-04-2012 6:10 PM


Re: Repugnant!
I will admit, most passages about slaves were not attributed to Jesus, but were from Paul.
(exception, The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT))

It make you wonder why so many Christians go by what Paul says, rather than concentrate on what is attributed to jesus.

Edited by ramoss, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Trixie, posted 03-04-2012 6:10 PM Trixie has not yet responded

  
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