The Death Knell for ID?

Message 16 of 102 (650032) 01-27-2012 7:02 AM

Reply to: Message 13 by Wounded King 01-27-2012 4:55 AM

They may put that forward, but the fact that the 4th mutation required for the utilisation of OmpF didn't occur without the previous 3 raises an interesting question. What would happen if one of those initial 3 was knocked out, so you had steps 1, 2 and 4 or 2, 3 and 4? Their data suggest that steps 1,2 and 3 are absolutely required for step 4 to take place, but once step 4 is in place, how necessary are the previous steps or can one or other then be discarded? The early mutation that increases the phage's affinity for the rare LamB binding site can possibly be knocked out now that the phage has an alternative, abundant binding site (although I'd like to see this shown experimentally). That also means that further mutations at that site may now be more "survivable"

I think this demonstrates the fault that Behe makes when he starts with a "completed" IR system and then tries to work back. Not every step that resulted in an IR system may still be hanging around. Rather than working backwards, it's more productive to try to work forwards. It's a bit like building something that requires scaffolding to be put up. Once the build is complete, the scaffolding is removed. An IDist would look at the building and suggest that the builders flew up to the higher levels to do the work, a scientist would suggest ladders, hoists and scaffolding to reach the higher levels. While not an ideal analogy, I can't come up with a better one. Feel free to suggest some as analogies are so useful in explaining things.

Message 18 of 102 (650039) 01-27-2012 8:30 AM

Reply to: Message 16 by Trixie 01-27-2012 7:02 AM

I don't think the sort of strict sequentiality you seem to be describing here really exists.

What the author's conclude is that all 4 mutations are required, the order in which they arise seems irrelevant. In their replicate experiments all of the mutation types arose in the non OmpF infecting strains and at least 2 distinct combinations of 3 mutations arose, in EvoA lacking the A3034G mutation and in F2 and H4 lacking the G3319A mutation. Both of these were just one mutation away from an OmpF infective strain through slightly different evolutionary trajectories.

No doubt it is significant that in both cases it is one of the highly specific mutations that is missing but there is no reason to assume that with a broader sampling strains might not have been found with both the highly specific mutations but lacking one of the broader mutations, such strains are just more unlikely.

Your final point comes back to the lamentable lability of the term 'Irreducible Complexity' which seems to be one of those terms that means whatever a person wants it to mean. Behe himself has given more than 1 distinctly different definition and the main point of difference is precisely whether systems which have prior functional intermediates with a distinct function, as in this case, are IC.

It would certainly be very informative to have some proper analysis of the extent and nature of the fitness benefits of each mutation in isolation. Perhaps all any of the mutations do is increase affinity for LamB up until such a point with all 4 mutations that it can now bind to OmpF which is apparently the most structurally similar E. coli protein to LamB (at least going by crystal structure).

TTFN,

WK

Message 20 of 102 (650053) 01-27-2012 10:14 AM

And so it seems incongruous and almost comical to me to see evolutionists giving ID disproportionately far more critical attention than it is receiving from those who should be actively researching ID but aren't.

--Percy

Message 22 of 102 (650079) 01-27-2012 12:14 PM

Reply to: Message 20 by Percy 01-27-2012 10:14 AM

quote:

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I stayed on as a full-time Discovery fellow until Baylor hired me in early 2000. But in the intervening twelve years, they’ve provided lots of support, both tangible and intangible. As it is, I’m leaving my present post at Southwestern Seminary and returning as a full-time fellow of Discovery later this year (2012). This will allow me to redouble my efforts at developing ID’s scientific research program.

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Message 23 of 102 (650080) 01-27-2012 12:16 PM

Reply to: Message 22 by JonF 01-27-2012 12:14 PM

Funny. Twice nothing is still nothing.

Message 24 of 102 (650082) 01-27-2012 12:35 PM

Reply to: Message 22 by JonF 01-27-2012 12:14 PM

Last I saw the Dishonesty Institute didn't have any research program.

They have a lot of PR flacks and lawyers working there, but I don't think they have any laboratories or any of the things normally associated with research.

More like a PR or lobbying firm pushing the goals of the wedge strategy:

http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html

...the Center explores how new developments in biology, physics and cognitive science raise serious doubts about scientific materialism and have re-opened the case for a broadly theistic understanding of nature.

Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions.

Governing Goals

--To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
--To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.

Yup, lots of scientific research there!

Message 25 of 102 (650132) 01-27-2012 8:53 PM

Reply to: Message 24 by Coyote 01-27-2012 12:35 PM

The scary thing is that in their own minds they have probably redefined "research" in the same way that they have redefined science. And I'm not entirely kidding here, for the mind that can redefine science to include the supernatural, it is no great leap to redefine research to include personal revelation.

Capt.

Message 26 of 102 (650141) 01-28-2012 6:50 AM

Reply to: Message 24 by Coyote 01-27-2012 12:35 PM

TTFN,

WK

Message 27 of 102 (650144) 01-28-2012 7:55 AM

Reply to: Message 26 by Wounded King 01-28-2012 6:50 AM

quote:

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New Scientist magazine sent a reporter to the Biologic Institute facilities in late 2006 to investigate. The reporter, Celeste Biever, was given a fairly chilly reception and found few willing to speak to her about their research. Although the New Scientist article was somewhat negative, the Discovery Institute touted it as unequivocal evidence that the Biologic Institute is engaging in scientific research.

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Message 28 of 102 (650146) 01-28-2012 9:13 AM

Reply to: Message 27 by Panda 01-28-2012 7:55 AM

I posted about it a while back.
Message 106

Message 29 of 102 (650154) 01-28-2012 10:46 AM

Reply to: Message 24 by Coyote 01-27-2012 12:35 PM

Yes. In fact the above quoted statement says that Dembski is going to increase his efforts to develop a research program, and not that he is simply going to do contribute to current research efforts. I see the statement as an honest assessment that DI does indeed consist of flacks, hacks, and apologists, at least currently.

After the big dust up over Dembski's statements about a world wide flood, or lack thereof, nobody should be the least bit surprised that Dembski is involved in new pursuits. The YEC establishment's treatment of Dembski puts the lie to all those fundamentalist efforts at pushing ID in the name of academic freedom.

Message 30 of 102 (650170) 01-28-2012 1:54 PM

Biologic Institute Research Page

Can anyone find a citation that challenges naturalistic approaches to science? Anything that seems like it introduces a "broadly theistic understanding of nature" or that challenges the "materialistic worldview"?

--Percy