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Author Topic:   In defense of nihilism
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 306 (263440)
11-27-2005 12:16 AM


"Nihilism" has negative connotations, but I would like to explain my own use of it and offer a defense. As I define it, nihilism is neither positive nor negative. It is merely a certain view about the nature of human life. This is it: life has no objective purpose. We are accidental creations of a mindless universe. I think most can agree that this is not an unreasonable idea.
What are the benefits of nihilism? It allows one to relieve oneself of cant and piety, both of the humanistic and religious sort.
The benefit is not that one rids oneself of moralistic schemes--that's impossible--but that one is able to take all these moralities with a grain of salt. People have always had a tendency to think themselves too thoroughly right in matters which are subjective. This tendency is responsible for much of human suffering, for much of the whole history of grief.
One might reply, if I cannot take my creed wholeheartedly, then it seems a sham. I consider that idea a mistake. That is the salemanship view of life, the view that if I only believe something enough then it is bound to be true. There are certain practical aspects of life in which that idea might come in handy, but it won't do as philosophy.
For those interested in exploring nihilism further, I'm including a brief excerpt from a nihilistic bible that I located in the dusty corner of a used-book store (Pardon me. The books are referred to as "pre-owned.").
The Nihilistic Bible
1.1 The Master looks out into the world of men and finds no purpose under the sun. Though he travels to all the tribes of the world and hearkens to its wise men, of meaning he finds none.
1.2 Yet he rejoices to know that it matters not what he does or leaves undone. A hundred years from now it is all the same. The dog that lieth in the ditch is his equal as is the gnat swarming in the eye.
1.3 But tell us, Master, how we should live and what we should do.
1.4 It matters not how ye live or what ye do ultimately. You will go to your long home. There is nothing more tragic than this and nothing more true. But until the ultimate, consider the cows of the pasture munching contentedly. They do not worry about their future which is to be beef for the fat men of the earth. We must likewise ignore the slaughterhouse of time, the abbattoir of all.
1.5 Philosophy is poetry. What the wise men say is so much sparkling dust and word experiments. Rainbows and sunsets make us shiver with delight but soon disappear into nothing. So it is with all creeds. Even so, there is comfort in a creed, as in a warm fire, and I would urge ye to adopt one.
1.6 We do not understand, Master.
1.7 What stupid apostles I have. One must take one's apostles as one finds them, I suppose. Adopt a creed with full knowledge of what ye do. Then ye shall live authentically. Stay out of the churches. They exist to destroy your freedom of thought. A creed is a game which ye must play well to reap the profit. One must enter into the spirit of the game.
1.8 Be ye not loners in your creed. Hearken unto others and learn to enjoy their subtle pretensions, as they will enjoy yours, and what was once disgusting will become delightful; what was once ugly, beautiful; what was once ailing, healthy.
1.9 Life might be likened to a farmer who must choose which to harvest first, the wheat or the corn. While he is thus taking thought, a storm comes out of the mountains and destroys both crops.
1.10 Partake freely therefore of the bounteous earth, the dripping honey, the leavened bread, the flesh of goats, and the flowing wine, but beware lest ye forfeit the greater good, the comfort of women and the long journey of the mind.
1.11 He who utters pious cant can in no wise enter the church--
1.12 What church, Master?
1.13 Could you let me finish? He who utters pious cant can in no wise enter the church to end all churches, the anti-church church. It mattereth not if one ministers unto the mountain god or refuses the pale Galilean; it mattereth not if one loves the race or promotes the patriotism of the tribe. O ye hypocrites, will you paint the world blue and call that a purpose? Just as well that as the other, the giving of alms or the care of the sick or washing the feet of the Master. It is all arbitrary.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 11-26-2005 11:30 PM

Replies to this message:
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 Message 6 by Nighttrain, posted 11-27-2005 4:53 PM robinrohan has replied
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 Message 8 by Parasomnium, posted 11-27-2005 5:43 PM robinrohan has replied
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 Message 15 by Phat, posted 11-28-2005 12:30 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 16 by Rrhain, posted 11-28-2005 1:11 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 18 by iano, posted 11-28-2005 6:01 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 161 by 1.61803, posted 12-05-2005 4:34 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 306 (263589)
11-27-2005 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Nighttrain
11-27-2005 4:53 PM


Re: Good apostles hard to find
Jesus had the same trouble.
Yeah, he was the only one who was smart.

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Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 306 (263691)
11-28-2005 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Rrhain
11-28-2005 1:11 AM


Re: That isn't the definition of nihilism
You have constructed a morality, but nihilism requires that such a construction is an illusion that does not really exist.
No moral scheme "exists" in the sense of being objective, for it will always lack a logical ground. So there's no point in pretending that our morals are objective.
We need, however, some rules to live by, so we construct systems. We just have to recognize them for what they are and to recognize that they are changable.

This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 306 (263693)
11-28-2005 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by iano
11-28-2005 6:01 AM


It says that you feel authenticated by living in harmony with others then fine. If being a serial killer is your gig then that is equally authenticating.
Authentication as I am defining it is not a matter of what one "feels." Authentication is the honest recognition of what human life consists of.
There is no such thing as objective wrong for the true nihilist.
This is true. There is no logical ground for any moral system, so there is no point in being self-righteous about the burglar. However, according to my system, Thou shalt not burglarize thy neighbor's house.

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 Message 18 by iano, posted 11-28-2005 6:01 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by iano, posted 11-28-2005 8:51 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 306 (263737)
11-28-2005 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by iano
11-28-2005 8:51 AM


Why on earth not? I'm good at it, ain't never been caught. Only need to work 10 hours a week and I have a large house and a vacation home and a beemer 645 parked outside. It helps pay for the heroin to supply my teenagers (I'm getting sick of them) If there is any reason for me not to it would only be that its not worth my while to do so
That's right. From a practical standpoint, I would think that the risks of getting caught outweigh the benefits. From my subjective moral standpoint, burglarizing a house is wrong but obviously I can't prove that it's wrong. Nobody can prove that any act is morally right or wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by iano, posted 11-28-2005 8:51 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by iano, posted 11-28-2005 10:57 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 306 (263767)
11-28-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by iano
11-28-2005 10:57 AM


The accidental nature of life
I would have thought the stance of nihilism is not so much proving there is a moral right/wrong but that there is no moral right/wrong to prove. And given that no one can live nihilism in practice, why would anyone say they are a nihilist. A nihilist cannot be a nihilist. Hmmm
A nihilist adopts a moral code with the knowledge that the code is subjective. It's "subjective" in the sense that it cannot be proven to be correct. This has nothing to do with our feelings. Strong feelings about something do not prove anything.
Christian morals are based on a belief system which cannot be proved.
Therefore, by this definition, Christian morals are subjective.
Now just because we cannot prove some statement to be true, this does not mean necessarily that it is in fact not true. It might be true; we just can't prove it. But based on the evidence available to me, I have concluded that all religious belief is false. How do I come to this remarkable conclusion? Well, it seems to me that the nature of life as lived by all beings I know of is accidental. This goes against the Christian belief system, but it fits very well with nihilism. It could be, of course, that what appears to be one great accident is really a secret plan. God is controlling everything but doing it secretly. Why He would do so secretly is something of a puzzle, but maybe it's a game He likes to play. This idea of a game, however, seems not very reasonable to me, and at any rate I am going to need a little more proof than the idea of God playing a game in order for me to overturn my belief in the accidental nature of life: the evidence for the accidental nature of life is present and obvious and ongoing day after day throughout our lives.

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 Message 25 by iano, posted 11-28-2005 10:57 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by iano, posted 11-28-2005 2:08 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 306 (263771)
11-28-2005 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
11-28-2005 12:30 AM


Re: Nix to Nihilism
Nihilism frees the mind from fear of anything....yet death awaits the nihilist as surely as the Sun sets.
Nihilism deosn't free the mind from any fears. I think it does tend to make one more tentative in one's moral judgments.
Death awaits everyone as surely as the Sun sets, not just the nihilist.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 306 (263772)
11-28-2005 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by nwr
11-27-2005 2:09 PM


the concept of "purpose"
"Purpose" is an inherently subjective concept. Thus any attempt to come up with an objective purpose is doomed to fail.
Things that have been intentionally made have objective purposes. The purpose of a chair is to be a thing to sit on. Of course you could also use it as a ladder, but that's not its purpose.
So I would disagree that "purpose" is inherently subjective.

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Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 306 (263789)
11-28-2005 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by iano
11-28-2005 2:08 PM


Re: The accidental nature of life
I would think it more accurate to say he believes the code is subjective. His choosing which elements of the code to don may be subjective, but the code itself may or may not be subjective
ok, I'll agree with that.
The curious thing is that the nihilist is as much in need of a code in order to live his life as is the Christian. He needs to offset his beliefs in order to get on with the more important business of living. Much as in the same way that the hippies in the 60's needed the very culture they we're dropping out of, to survive.
Nice comparison, Iano. I like it. People live in groups and there are conflicts in groups about our mates and huts and things. The way to solve these conflicts is to set up some rules. Thou shalt not smite thy neighbor on one cheek, even though you would like to.
There are very good reasons why it is the way it is (hint: free-will)
Free will has nothing to do with tapeworms and hurricanes and bird flu and stomach cancer and meteors crashing into planets and the like. I know, I know--after the Fall nature got mean, etc.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 306 (263865)
11-28-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by iano
11-28-2005 2:08 PM


Proof of God
Question: what kind of proof are you talking about anyway. What would float your boat?
He could show up--although if he did, people might think he was an alien. I'm sure there's been a science fiction story written with such a plot. Some aliens study our culture and decide the easist way to conquer us would be to enact a second coming. They have all sorts of technology so could put on quite a show.
You know, like what happened to Montezuma.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 306 (263932)
11-28-2005 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by nwr
11-28-2005 7:58 PM


Re: the concept of "purpose"
You have introduced a different meaning of "purpose".
In the sense in which you used "purpose" in your OP, the chair has no purpose at all. Rather, we each have purpose and on the basis of our own purpose we ascribe purpose to the chair.
I don't see this. A purpose is what something is for. A chair is for sitting. Whoever made the chair designed it to be sat in. But nobody made people presumably, so there's nothing that we are especially made for. If a god had made us, one assumes he would have done so for a purpose (to love Him, or something).

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by nwr, posted 11-28-2005 9:24 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 306 (263939)
11-28-2005 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
11-28-2005 8:49 PM


Re: Proof of God
but then it will be too late to change your mind.
Why is He playing this game with us?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 11-28-2005 8:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 306 (264120)
11-29-2005 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Parasomnium
11-27-2005 5:43 PM


Re: Primum viveri deinde philosophari
Nice touch, Robin, this Nihilistic Bible. You have the gift of the written word.
Thanks, Parasomnium. It was just an experiment in style. I like playing around with different writing styles, for some reason.

This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 306 (264121)
11-29-2005 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by crashfrog
11-29-2005 12:12 PM


Re: Proof of God
I repeated your experiment but was unable to duplicate your results. Can you explain?
Obviously you have a bad attitude. You were not sufficiently sincere.

This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 306 (264125)
11-29-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by nwr
11-28-2005 9:24 PM


Re: the concept of "purpose"
Here are several possible meanings for "purpose":
individual purpose - it is my purpose to work toward making this world a better place than it would otherwise be;
convention purpose - we conventionally say that the purpose of the chair is for sitting;
relational purpose - robinrohan sees the purpose of the chair as something he can sit on while imbibing his evening refreshment; the furniture manufacturer sees the purpose of the chair as a sale item to bring in profits;
three way relational purpose - pastor A says that the God (B) made person (C) for the purpose of singing His praises.
Your individual purpose sounds like a goal to me. People have goals, but they were not presumably designed by some being to pursue that goal.
If you want to say that the purpose of a chair is to make money for the maker, that's fine with me. In any case, it has a purpose because it was made by a being with some purpose in mind. Assuming we were not, we have no purpose in that sense.
Of course we can devise a purpose if we want to: "My purpose for living on this earth is to write funny stuff." But that's quite different from being designed by somebody else for a particular purpose.

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Replies to this message:
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