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Author Topic:   In defense of nihilism
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 306 (269661)
12-15-2005 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by iano
12-15-2005 5:28 AM


Catch-22
It has all the hallmarks of a catch-22. But God is very good as resolving catch-22's. Caught in the crossfire by the pharisees who hauled a woman caught in adultery before him, he was asked, "the law says this woman should be stoned - what do you say?" Jesus seemingly had two potential answers:

"Stone her according to the law" his powerbase - a ministry based on love and forgiveness - which held crowds captive to him and protected him would have dissolved. His protection gone he could have been picked off and killed

"ignore the law - don't stone her" Blasphemy. Penalty for blasphemy? Stoning.

Catch-22. Jesus replied "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone. The mob melted away.

This doesn't strike me as a Catch-22. A Catch-22 has no solution.

In the novel "Catch-22," the central Catch--22 was that a pilot could be taken off combat duty if he could prove that he was insane. But the fact that you wanted to be taken off combat duty was proof that you were sane. So you could never ask to be taken off duty.

Would you want God to be true Robin?

Are you asking me if I want for God to exist? That would depend on the nature of the god. I don't want a god to exist that sends me to Hell because I don't believe in Him. That would be an irrational, monstrous God, it seems to me.

This message has been edited by robinrohan, 12-15-2005 11:30 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by iano, posted 12-15-2005 5:28 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by iano, posted 12-15-2005 1:48 PM robinrohan has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 272 of 306 (269684)
12-15-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by robinrohan
12-15-2005 12:20 PM


Re: Catch-22
I don't want a god to exist that sends me to Hell because I don't believe in Him. That would be an irrational, monstrous God, it seems to me.

Your default positon, the destination you were born heading towards is Hell. God doesn't send you there because of disbelief - you're going to end up there anyway. Object moving in a straight line....unless acted upon by an exterior force.

Hell, unless you allow him to prevent that happening. The wages of sin is death. Wages are earned. Earned by you and me. All a just God does is pay what has been earned. Believing or not believing doesn't make any difference. You sin whether you 'believe' there is such a thing as sin or not. I sin despite the fact I believe. Neither our sin nor Gods existances is affected in the least by our believing in them.

A person knows that they are doing wrong when they do wrong. Fig leaf philosophies don't change that fact. A person may apply the philosophy again and again to the point where they eventually shut out Gods call and they really do believe with all their heart that there is no such thing as a objective wrong. I say heart but it is a hardened heart - the kind that can kill 6 million Jews without compunction or compassion. A heart in which there beats nothing anymore of God. But the person chose to apply the philosophy to themselves. They shut out the call. Theydidit

God didn't put us in this situation. Adam did. All God is trying to do is to prevent that which is going to happen anyway, from happening

Would you like God to be just - to give everyone the exact same opportunity to be saved from a destination they'll have earned for themselves. For that is the horror of Hell - the worm that doesn't die. Saying "I did this to myself - you fool" - forever


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by robinrohan, posted 12-15-2005 12:20 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by robinrohan, posted 12-15-2005 1:56 PM iano has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 273 of 306 (269685)
12-15-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by iano
12-15-2005 1:48 PM


Re: Catch-22
God didn't put us in this situation. Adam did.

That hardly seems fair. I'm going to Hell because Adam sinned?

That's comparable to sending me to prison becuase my great, great, great grandfather committed murder in 1789.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by iano, posted 12-15-2005 1:48 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 5:20 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 274 of 306 (269907)
12-16-2005 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by robinrohan
12-15-2005 1:56 PM


It just is....
A child born with Aids because it was infected by its parents may think it is not fair. But in fact it just is. That someone doesn't get to chose their parents but may have terrible ones - just is. That I am born in a relatively affluent country and someone else is born impoverished has nothing to do with fairness. It just is. That I may have the genes of my father which make me bald prematurely or give me a higher likelyhood of a heart attack is just the way it is.

That everyone is born destined for Hell is just the way it is. God didn't cause it and is under no obligation to do anything at all about it - except that his wrath against sin and his justness in not being able to "simply let people off" is offset by his love. Because of these attributes which must find expression: wrath, justness,love - he found a way whereby all attributes could be satisfied perfectly.

We are not the centre of the universe, God is. If his attributes could be perfectly satisfied only by having us all in hell forever because of Adam with no salvation from it possible - then that would be fine too. If God wasn't love, but only wrath and justice then that is the way it would have been. We are only the created. We don't get to tell the creator how to go about his business. It is worth remembering that. All that has to be satisfied is Gods attributes. They are the things that must come into perfect equilibrium. Love happens to be one of those attributes. As are justice and wrath. All equally valid. All to be equally expressed.

Him sacrificing his beloved son in order to attempt to save his enemies gives a thinking person some idea of how unfathomly deep his love must be. If his love can be that unfathomly deep and his other attributes are equivilent in depth, then we can get some inkling into the absolute justness of his justness and of his wrath. There is plenty in the OT for anyone who needed more definitive insight

When a person is judged according to Gods standard, they can be sure that all that they recieve will reflect perfectly that which is owing to them. Robin, you sin because you are a sinner. You have been infected with a disease that encourages you to sin (see the man in Romans 7 yet again). God didn't infect you. Adam did. You are either going to face the consequences of the disease you have or your going to take the medicine that can cure you.

As with any problem, the first half of the solution is to realise you have a problem in the first place. That is the purpose of Gods call, to try and show you that you have got a problem. That you are eternally ill. As soon as you accept that you are sick and quit running out of the surgery then the injection will be administered.

It is not about doing anything is it about accepting what just is. Denial is not just a river in Egypt

This message has been edited by iano, 16-Dec-2005 10:21 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by robinrohan, posted 12-15-2005 1:56 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Silent H, posted 12-16-2005 5:50 AM iano has responded

Silent H
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 275 of 306 (269912)
12-16-2005 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by iano
12-16-2005 5:20 AM


Re: It just is....
A child born with Aids because it was infected by its parents may think it is not fair. But in fact it just is. That someone doesn't get to chose their parents but may have terrible ones - just is.

Uh, that certainly is only because God made it that way. No one else made the universe right?

That everyone is born destined for Hell is just the way it is. God didn't cause it and is under no obligation to do anything at all about it

He could have stopped it. He didn't have to make a world where that was possible. Even if Adam sinned, it was God's world. Adam did not have a choice about THAT.

God's fault.

By the way did hell exist before adam or was it only made for adam after the fall? If before, didn't that make God a pretty sick twist, readily acknowledging he knew where his world was going to lead? If he did it afterward, didn't that make God a pretty sick twist, making one of his creations suffer eternal torture for ONE temporarily simple error?

Couldn't he have simply created a sort of supernatural rehab center for people that make bad choices?

And why did he make it that sin was passed down the line like disease or other PHYSICAL issues you described. Just because my father is brilliant or highly moral will not be passed on. You'd think sin, if it was caused by judgement and relates to moral judgement would transfer like that and not like physical disease.

Him sacrificing his beloved son in order to attempt to save his enemies gives a thinking person some idea of how unfathomly deep his love must be.

He creates people, he alienates them, he makes them enemies, then he sends his son to die a gruesome death to save them?

Unfathomable? Yes. Deep? Deep something, yes.

Otherwise it is rather simple minded antics.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 5:20 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 7:06 AM Silent H has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 276 of 306 (269919)
12-16-2005 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Silent H
12-16-2005 5:50 AM


Re: It just is....
Uh, that certainly is only because God made it that way. No one else made the universe right?

I wouldn't imagine there would be much in the way of sexually transmitted disease if there weren't folk around who choose to live other than according to the blueprint that the designer laid down for sexual relations.

If God punishes sin, because he hates sin then whose to argue with him? It just is. A lion who persists in killing villagers may only be acting according to his nature. He will reap death all the same. It's nothing to do with fair/unfair.

He could have stopped it. He didn't have to make a world where that was possible. Even if Adam sinned, it was God's world. Adam did not have a choice about THAT.

You may be on the verge of issuing that fallacious argument that God can do anything at all. God can only do anything that is consistant with his nature. He cannot act counter to his nature. He cannot sin for instance. He cannot either make himself truly not exist then exist again. God cannot do anything at all.

And it appears that God cannot make a person who can freely love him without giving that person the free choice not to love him. God knowing what would happen in no way means that he caused it to happen. He designed things so that a person could choose. That he knew the suffering that it would cause both to us and to him doesn't in any way remove the fact that a choice was made. Evidently he felt the ends justified the means. And who are we to argue. If God thinks its worth it then it is worth it. He decides - we don't.

Adam had a choice. Obey/disobey. Discussion about whether he knew to the full what the consequences would be are irrelevant. He chose not to obey. I didn't know the full consequences of smoking when I started but I knew that people who I had every reason to trust - they had earned that trust over many years - told me that it would be a bad choice to make. It was a bad choice to make. I made it. Whilst I hate the (AbE; sin in the...) purveyors who designed the trap I don't blame anybody but myself for walking into it. I didn't have to.

making one of his creations suffer eternal torture for ONE temporarily simple error?

This demonstrates a view of sin that suffers from the major flaw in that it is a view formed by looking through sin-tinted spectacles. You cannot hold any objective view on sin because you have no idea (not that I have very much more) what the significance of sin is. Heaven is a place where there is no sin at all. You can start to get a glimpse of what that would be like if people stopped sinning on earth. No starvation, no sexually transmitted disease, cirrosis of the liver rates fall, lung cancers fall, heart disease falls, no war, no drink driving, few if any industrial accidents, less raping of the worlds resources. Let your mind imagine what it would be like if man didn't sin.

Then you'll realise why you can't let sinners into heaven - otherwise it would be as mucked up as this place is in no time (no pun intended).

Earth is the place where those who chose God get God and those who don't, don't. Even though mans free choice made it this way, God ustilises it for his own plan. God didn't make the Jews kill Jesus. He knew that sin in them would cause them to - and utilised that in his plan. The eternal perspective means you can't get it wrong.

Couldn't he have simply created a sort of supernatural rehab center for people that make bad choices?

He provided one. He's called Jesus. God won't force a person to enter rehab. As with the AA: "My name is Ian and I am a sinner" You've got to admit you have a problem before anyone can do anything about helping you resolve it. Free choice. Your free choice.

And why did he make it that sin was passed down the line like disease or other PHYSICAL issues you described. Just because my father is brilliant or highly moral will not be passed on. You'd think sin, if it was caused by judgement and relates to moral judgement would transfer like that and not like physical disease.

We share Adams physical genetics. We share his spiritual genetics. In the same way as a person in Christ recieves the benefits of sharing his spiritual genes (as it were) although they have not done anything to generate them, a person in Adam receives the negatives (a sinful nature) that come from having his spiritual genes - even though they themselves have not generated them. Why is it like so? I don't know.

But it is worth repeating that God didn't make the choice that resulted in it being so. Even if he knew before hand what the choice would be.

He creates people, he alienates them, he makes them enemies, then he sends his son to die a gruesome death to save them?

Iano walks out of the pub and straddles his fazer 1000, wobbling slightly from the drink he's taken he blasts off towards home. Heading too fast into a bend he loses control, mounts a kerb and ploughs into a woman wheeling her baby in a pram. All 3 killed instantly. Who do you blame? Yamaha?

God didn't alienate. Man choose and suffered the consequences he was warned of before he made his choice. God cannot lie - even if it creates a right ball of crap - for which he himself suffers the most of all.

{AbE} God didn't invent sin (sin is disobeying God). He only invented the situation where it was possible to sin

This message has been edited by iano, 16-Dec-2005 12:26 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Silent H, posted 12-16-2005 5:50 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-16-2005 7:25 AM iano has responded
 Message 279 by Silent H, posted 12-16-2005 7:41 AM iano has responded

Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 277 of 306 (269922)
12-16-2005 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by iano
12-16-2005 7:06 AM


Re: It just is....
We may not be able to understand the significance of sin, but we can understand true love, right? Considering that God demands it of us and all.

Rhetorical philosophical question: If God turns water into whisky, is it moonshine?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 7:06 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 7:34 AM Funkaloyd has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 278 of 306 (269924)
12-16-2005 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Funkaloyd
12-16-2005 7:25 AM


Re: It just is....
We may not be able to understand the significance of sin, but we can understand true love, right? Considering that God demands it of us and all.

I don't think we can really get a grip on that either. We get glimpses of stuff we know is sin. We get glimpse on stuff we know is love. The only way we get either of these things is that God put it into us to be able to recognise them. True love, absolute love will only be known when a person is actually exposed to it. How could one know true love when they have no abolute measure against which to judge it. I get a glimpse "through the glass darkly" of what Gods love is. "Whilst I was an enemy Christ died for me". I can only use the measure of this fallen world to get an inkling. A marine sacrificing himself to save a Wehrmacht soldier would be a stupdendous thing to behold. But it is still only a partial revelation of the absolute. God can only use pictures which we understand: son, heir, in Christ, children, mansions in heaven. None of these things adequately explain that which can only be fully experienced when one is faced with him.

Me, I can't wait...

It's the same as belief. How could anyone believe in God unless they had someway of knowing that he was there in the first place


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-16-2005 7:25 AM Funkaloyd has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-16-2005 7:57 AM iano has responded

Silent H
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 279 of 306 (269926)
12-16-2005 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by iano
12-16-2005 7:06 AM


Re: It just is....
I wouldn't imagine there would be much in the way of sexually transmitted disease if there weren't folk around who choose to live other than according to the blueprint that the designer laid down for sexual relations.

1) God made the diseases, but he didn't have to.
2) God never set down rules for sex until wayyyyyyy later in the story.
3) Sexually transmitted diseases are like all other kinds. You don't have to break any rules to catch pneumonia or the black plague (back then) and more people die and suffer from those than STDs.

He will reap death all the same. It's nothing to do with fair/unfair.

Everyone reaps death. The unfairness would be God sending a lion to eat you because your greatgrandfather made a wrong choice.

He designed things so that a person could choose.

No he didn't. If God is incapable of all choice, then how could mortals be? And what's worse is he doesn't have to suffer for chosing to do things that he cannot help but choose because of his nature, yet humans are. And worst of all I have no choice in anything because some guy at the beginning of time was given a choice and did something wrong.

Evidently he felt the ends justified the means. And who are we to argue. If God thinks its worth it then it is worth it. He decides - we don't.

Uh, we certainly can argue that it is then NOT Adam's fault, which is what you argued. You can wipe away whether we have the power to declare right or wrong, but not who is ultimately to be held responsible.

If God said to me "don't blame me, Adam did it", that would be pretty lame.

Let your mind imagine what it would be like if man didn't sin.

I'm still basking in the image of a world free of ignorance, intolerance, and religious fundamentalism.

In any case you didn't answer my question. Making a lesser creature suffer eternally for a temporal mistake seems a bit extreme.

He provided one. He's called Jesus.

Jesus didn't come till later, and he did not replace hell.

We share Adams physical genetics. We share his spiritual genetics.

Lamarkian genetics are out. If you compared Adam's physical genes to spiritual genes, then everyone would be free of sin at birth. Unless you are claiming God made Adam sinful from creation?

Who do you blame? Yamaha?

Take a deep breath and think about this very carefully. Your argument suggests that I should blame you... and I would.

God blames not just you, but yamaha, and the woman and the baby, and any great great great great great great grandchildren you may have.

Heheheh... yes, who do YOU blame? Unless it is yamaha and everyone else, deep down you have an idea how unfair God is being.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 7:06 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 8:29 AM Silent H has responded

  
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 280 of 306 (269929)
12-16-2005 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by iano
12-16-2005 7:34 AM


Re: It just is....
iano writes:

The only way we get either of these things [love and sin] is that God put it into us to be able to recognise them.

Are you talking about all humans, or just those that he choses to "work with"?

If the former, then why is my sense of love and sin so incredibly screwed up? I see it as extremely unloving, even sinful, to allow humans to suffer horrific disease, no matter what their crimes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 7:34 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 8:39 AM Funkaloyd has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 281 of 306 (269933)
12-16-2005 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Silent H
12-16-2005 7:41 AM


Re: It just is....
God made the diseases, but he didn't have to.

Yamaha gave Iano a perfect, factory assembled Fazer 1000 engine. They said " it is velly good, don't fool alound with it. For on the day you fool alound with it you will surely make a velly,velly BIG mess" Then some self-proclaimed expert told me that if I removed the head and skimmed 0.5mm off it, it would produce more power. "Hmmmm..." iano thought to himself - reaching tentively for the angle grinder...

When he modified the engine he had been given, he found that instead of producing more performance, the sealing surface of the once perfectly flat head had been destroyed by his guntering with the angle grinder. The bike would start but the head gasket leaked abominably, the one cylinder which did actually seal was pinking badly because the octane rating of the fuel couldn't handle the increased compression ratio. He found that revving it did result in forward motion but the reduced piston/valve clearances cause the pistons to hit the valves resulting in leakage past those too. So he started to grind lumps out of the pistons to provide extra clearance for the valves....

It is all Yamahas fault

Everyone reaps death.

The disease, sinful nature is indeed fatal. It killed our spiritual union with God and it will kill our bodies

No he didn't. If God is incapable of all choice, then how could mortals be? And what's worse is he doesn't have to suffer for chosing to do things that he cannot help but choose because of his nature, yet humans are. And worst of all I have no choice in anything because some guy at the beginning of time was given a choice and did something wrong.

Do you mind if we leave the idea of God's choice to one side. Simply because folk stuck in space/time commenting in any objective way on the choice of one in eternity will get us into deep doo-doo

You sin because it is in your nature to sin. In that sense you cannot help but sin. God just wants to do something about it. Sin must be punished. It's a justice thing. God can take into account your own motivations within that frameword. You kill someone. It can be accidental, it can be through carelessness, it can be downright murder. All three receive different punishment. But all three must come before the court. Your own sin will have these elements: you knew what was wrong and chose to do it. It may be that some of it is heavily influenced by things beyond your control (your upbringing) and it may be that some of it was very much in your control. God will judge accordingly. There will be greater and lesser in the kingdom of heaven due to choices made in this life. Presumably greater and lesser in Hell too.

It doesn't matter whether you are a cook or a 4-star General on the side of the enemy. The problem is that you are on the wrong side. The only way that can be resolved is to desert.

You have choice. You do stuff and you know you didn't have to. Quite often it wouldn't have been at all difficult not to do it. You had your conscience telling you why not to do it - and you - like me and my smoking - ignored the advice.

Uh, we certainly can argue that it is then NOT Adam's fault, which is what you argued. You can wipe away whether we have the power to declare right or wrong, but not who is ultimately to be held responsible.

Adam had a blank slate. He unlike us, had no sinful nature urging him into sin. God said one thing, Satan said another. Adam choose. If God had explained more fully (maybe he did) what the consequences would be, then Satan could have offered more in the way of temptation. God didn't cause Satan to fall but he used satan in order to give Adam a choice. Knowing the result in no way affects the free choice - as long as the offer was balanced perfectly either way. We have no reason to suspect it wasn't. The bible in talking about our guilt seems to indicate that free choice was available. In using words like 'just' it is using words which we can understand. If Adam hadn't free choice then there is no point using a word like justice - we can have no clue as to what is being said if the words are meaningless to us.

I'm still basking in the image of a world free of ignorance, intolerance, and religious fundamentalism.

Don't hold your breath. Sin, like the poor, will be always with us.

In any case you didn't answer my question. Making a lesser creature suffer eternally for a temporal mistake seems a bit extreme.

Er....we're not temporal. Only the vehicle in which we ride is. As we jettison that we enter eternity. He did know us before we were formed in our mothers womb. A "What is eternity like" thread beckons

Jesus didn't come till later, and he did not replace hell.

Everbody who is saved is saved by being placed in Christ (out of Adam and into Christ - even Adam could be taken out of Adam - but there is little said about him after his apple eating days). That is the mechanical aspect of it. Its only spirit which is retained. And given that that is and eternal thing, a person before, during and after Christ can be placed in Christ. Christ always existed as Spirit

Christ didn't replace hell. He is the other option. In Adam/In Christ. That's all she wrote. Everyones choice

Lamarkian genetics are out.

Not having a clue as to what they are, I'm inclined to agree with you. Please.

If you compared Adam's physical genes to spiritual genes, then everyone would be free of sin at birth. Unless you are claiming God made Adam sinful from creation?

Adam was born spiritually alive. He died spiritually. His spiritual genes mutated. He devolved. It was in this mutated state than he impregnated Eve. The rest as they say is disputed history...

God blames not just you, but yamaha, and the woman and the baby, and any great great great great great great grandchildren you may have.

It was only an temporal analogy about blame when free choice is exercised. But if one doesn't agree about free choice then I suppose the bartender, the distiller, the petrol and perambulator companies can all be implicated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Silent H, posted 12-16-2005 7:41 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Silent H, posted 12-16-2005 10:31 AM iano has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 282 of 306 (269943)
12-16-2005 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Funkaloyd
12-16-2005 7:57 AM


Re: It just is....
Are you talking about all humans, or just those that he choses to "work with"?

God wants that none should perish. I'm inclinded to think he calls all. I was a right shit 4 years ago. If he can call me he can call anyone. The whole predestination thing is another can of worms - better not gone into now

Read the analogy above about me mucking around with the perfect engine Yamaha gave me. Sure the Yamaha guys will despair at what I've done. But it was given to me to do with as I willed. The Yamaha guys accepted that they might not like what I would do when they chose to give it to me. A gift is not a gift if it comes with conditions. Consequences are not the same as conditions though

If the former, then why is my sense of love and sin so incredibly screwed up? I see it as extremely unloving, even sinful, to allow humans to suffer horrific disease, no matter what their crimes.

I appreciate the sentiment. I would have sat here 4 years ago shaking my fist at God as vociferously as some do. Your stance comes from not realising just how horrific sin is. Sin is pollution, it stinks to high heaven. One apple / 6 million Jews. Disobeying God is serious. And the reason why we tend to minimise it is simply that we are sinners ourselves. If we didn't minimise it we might have to face the fact that we stink too.

Pain/suffering. Consequences of mucking about with that which had been good. That we have fallen so far is an indication of where it was that God intended us to be. Think about it for a minute. Consider what a God would be like who could create all he did. And then created us to have the very same relationship with him as his own eternal son has. We have falled far. But that is because the prize was so large.

God is playing for massive stakes. Don't let the things that happen on this battered earth deflect you from that. This is the most serious show in town. It is war. A war that will be won. The world is at war. What did you expect but casualties....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-16-2005 7:57 AM Funkaloyd has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-16-2005 8:58 AM iano has responded

Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 283 of 306 (269949)
12-16-2005 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by iano
12-16-2005 8:39 AM


Re: It just is....
Yamaha isn't omnipotent or omniscient. The analogy fails there.

If Yamaha sold you a lemon, knowing full well that you'd break down in the middle of nowhere on your way home, then you'd blame Yamaha. And you would be right to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 8:39 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 9:06 AM Funkaloyd has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 284 of 306 (269951)
12-16-2005 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Funkaloyd
12-16-2005 8:58 AM


Re: It just is....
Yamaha isn't omnipotent or omniscient. The analogy fails there.

It was only an analogy to indicate what God did and what we did. God knowing that something is going to happen is not the same as him being implicated in it happening - so long as there was sufficient for us to make a choice by ourselves.

Yamaha know that people are going to misuse their products. But our justice system doesn't implicate them in any way. The onus is on the person who has possession of the gift to use it as they have been instructed

If Yamaha sold you a lemon, knowing full well that you'd break down in the middle of nowhere on your way home, then you'd blame Yamaha. And you would be right to.

But they didn't sell me a lemon. They sold a perfectly good motorcycle. If it broke down it was because if what I choose to do with it. If Adam hadn't misused and assuming no one else had the perfection would be reigning right now. And none of us would be complaining that Gods foreknowledge as to our choices meant we had no free will. It's only that we choose to make it pear-shaped that has us moaning about it. Sour grapes.

He can't seem to win God. Well, except that he of course will...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-16-2005 8:58 AM Funkaloyd has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-16-2005 9:32 AM iano has responded

Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 285 of 306 (269957)
12-16-2005 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by iano
12-16-2005 9:06 AM


Re: It just is....
Yamaha expands into the firearms industry, and sells (or better yet, gives) you a perfectly good revolver, despite knowing that you're planning on committing a murder-suicide.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 9:06 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 9:59 AM Funkaloyd has not yet responded

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