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Author Topic:   In defense of nihilism
iano
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 286 of 306 (269968)
12-16-2005 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Funkaloyd
12-16-2005 9:32 AM


Re: It just is....
Yamaha don't have to expand into another industry. They make 180mph for-road-use motorcycles. They don't restrict them in Ireland to 70mph which is the speed limit here. This is probably because the world system is heavily based on the idea of free choice. There might be consequences for making the choices we make, but the world doesn't restrict us from making them. That is what it is to be human. To be permitted to make our own choices. The more you restrict peoples self-determination the less they can be human. The only way to prevent wrong choices is to give no choice at all. Had God done that he would have had created a bunch of automatons.

But you cannot relate in a reciprocally loving way with an automaton. On the other hand you can relate most fully with someone who has complete and utter choice in deciding to love back. For God to be able to express God-sized love he needs to create individuals who have free a choice. And it would seem to be necessary to provide something that is a complete 180 degree opposite to him. No shirking or loading the dice. And the opposite to him is pure evil. Man must be allowed to be able to choose pure evil. And he does...

This is not to say God made evil. He just made a system where evil could exist. Evil, like sin isn't an actual thing that needs creating. It is simply choosing opposite to that which God would have us do. All you need to allow evil to occur is to allow free choice


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-16-2005 9:32 AM Funkaloyd has not yet responded

Silent H
Member (Idle past 3931 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 287 of 306 (269988)
12-16-2005 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by iano
12-16-2005 8:29 AM


Re: It just is....
It is all Yamahas fault

Yamaha would have to have built the man and the bike in order for this analogy to work. Indeed yamaha would have to have made rust and other corrosion which could result in break down of bikes.

And in that case, yes it is Yamaha's fault.

The disease, sinful nature is indeed fatal.

This did not deal with my point.

Do you mind if we leave the idea of God's choice to one side. Simply because folk stuck in space/time commenting in any objective way on the choice of one in eternity will get us into deep doo-doo

No, actually I won't allow that to be left aside. I get that a bigger picture may present a different picture, but that does not change the fact that a guy stuck with the little picture then may act according to it.

If God can't give us a break on this same question, then it makes about 0 sense for us to give him a break.

You had your conscience telling you why not to do it - and you - like me and my smoking - ignored the advice.

What if my entire conscience told me fundie Xian beliefs are wrong, I should avoid practicing their tenets because it would be unhealthy, and have advice along those same lines from others?

Remember this world is made up of more than Xians, or followers of Abrahamic monotheism. You can get advice contrary to Xian moralisms.

By the way you'll have to point out the antismoking ordinances in the Bible.

Adam had a blank slate. He unlike us, had no sinful nature urging him into sin. God said one thing, Satan said another. Adam choose.

Yeah, and so if he chose and then gained sin, he could not pass it on. You said it was like a spiritual gene. A person can only pass on genes they start with.

He did know us before we were formed in our mothers womb.

1) Adam and Eve were not formed in wombs. I might note that this means that Eve at the very least could not have had an eternal character, she was an afterthought.
2) Whether we have a spirit that is eternal or not, does not change the fact that the ERROR was temporal. I was talking about the nature of the mistake, not the person.

Christ didn't replace hell. He is the other option. In Adam/In Christ. That's all she wrote. Everyones choice

At which we come full circle back to my criticism. Why could he not have created a hell at all, and simply created a rehab. Even for those that don't go with Jesus, eternal torment seems a bit much for temporal error.

Not having a clue as to what they are, I'm inclined to agree with you. Please.

Lamarck was a guy that said traits acquired during life can be passed on to children. That is not how physical genes actually work. You compared spiritual genes to physical genes, thus Adam was either born with sin or not.

His spiritual genes mutated. He devolved.

Well then that's something different.

Actually this whole eternal thing and spirit genes makes less sense the more you talk about. If we are all eternal then we existed before or in conjunction with the creation. In that case I existed before Adam got his chance at a temporal life as a separate spiritual entity.

How could it be fair to blame souls in heaven waiting for a chance to get their chot on earth, for Adam's mistake? How could he "pass on" spiritual genes to a spiritual creature that was already alive before he made his mistake?

It was only an temporal analogy about blame when free choice is exercised. But if one doesn't agree about free choice then I suppose the bartender, the distiller, the petrol and perambulator companies can all be implicated.

Wrong! I agree with free choice. Your setup (or God's) is that I have had no choice whatsoever. I am guilty for A&E's error. That gives me no choice whatsoever.

You are not going to dodge the implications of your own analogy that easy.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 8:29 AM iano has not yet responded

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 2787 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 288 of 306 (271708)
12-22-2005 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by iano
12-12-2005 10:03 AM


Re: God's game
It would be interesting to see what folk would think he should do to make this possible without interfering with our free ability to chose not to believe.

It would seem that seeing God and heaven face to face did not interfere with the angels' free will, since one-third of them chose freely to rebel against God.

why would it be any different for us?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by iano, posted 12-12-2005 10:03 AM iano has not yet responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 289 of 306 (319076)
06-08-2006 12:26 PM


ck
Nihilism (as I use the term, perhaps eccentrically) is a certain view about the human condition. Briefly, it can be summarized with the idea that human life has no "formal purpose." The formal purpose is the purpose for which something is made. The formal purpose of a hammer, for example, is to drive nails. You could use it for some other purpose, such as knocking someone in the head, but that would not be its formal purpose.

Human beings have no formal purpose, assuming no god. They were made by nature, and nature had nothing "in mind" when it made them since nature has no mind. We are just here, hanging about. Formally speaking, we are useless.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2006 12:42 PM robinrohan has responded
 Message 292 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:12 PM robinrohan has responded

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 290 of 306 (319079)
06-08-2006 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by robinrohan
06-08-2006 12:26 PM


Re: ck
human life has no "formal purpose."

From a nihilistic POV, we aren't any different than the other animals. So this whole planet is pointless then? That's ghey.

Not only do I not agree with the idea, I really dislike it. We might as well all go kill ourselves as there's no point in us being here (other than maybe some of us like being here). It just seems to remove some of the flare of living when there's no point.

We are just here, hanging about. Formally speaking, we are useless.

Yeah, that's depressing. But try telling that to nature when we're ripping it a new asshole. Perhaps we have some use afterall. Nature's self destruct mechanism, perhaps?

Theistically, the higher purpose thing is rewarding. Adding purpose to your life, even if its all false, at least gives you something to live for, it gives you something to do. Otherwise, I'm working all day just waiting to die.

If I were to embrace nihilism, I think I'd have to go for hedonism. I'd just work all day so I could get drunk and fuck all night. But from a theistic POV, it isn't all that rewarding. It seems like there is some other reason I'm here. I like Jesus' teachings, it makes me happy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by robinrohan, posted 06-08-2006 12:26 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by robinrohan, posted 06-08-2006 4:07 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 291 of 306 (319187)
06-08-2006 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by New Cat's Eye
06-08-2006 12:42 PM


Re: ck
Not only do I not agree with the idea, I really dislike it. We might as well all go kill ourselves as there's no point in us being here (other than maybe some of us like being here). It just seems to remove some of the flare of living when there's no point.

It's not necesarily negative that we have no formal purpose. It's just that, whether negative or positive, we don't have one. We make up purposes of our own, of course. Often they change. Someone's purpose at age 20 might be quite different from his purpose at age 35.

Using the hammer to knock someone in the head might be compared to our subjective or personal purposes. The only way we might have a formal purpose is if we were made by a being rather than nature. Some might say, "I was made by my parents, not nature." My response to that would be that our parents were the assembly line workers. The designer, Nature, is back in the office.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2006 12:42 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2006 4:38 PM robinrohan has responded

CK
Member (Idle past 2239 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 292 of 306 (319189)
06-08-2006 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by robinrohan
06-08-2006 12:26 PM


Re: ck
Ok - as I mentioned previously I'm not interested in any point-scoring or even challenging you on any particular point - so if the questions seem softball - they are intended to be. I'm just interested in the journey that you've been on.

Let me start at the start - have you ever being a believer? in a god? gods?

(by the way this is a chat so if you don't want to answer questions - just say "no comment" or the like) and we will move on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by robinrohan, posted 06-08-2006 12:26 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by robinrohan, posted 06-08-2006 4:17 PM CK has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 306 (319192)
06-08-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by CK
06-08-2006 4:12 PM


Re: ck
Let me start at the start - have you ever being a believer? in a god? gods?

No, never. I was raised by my Dad who never brought the subject up at all. I did go to midnight mass once with my Mom, but it was in Latin and I couldn't understand it. What I recall most were the pretty girls in the hats sitting just ahead of me. They were beauties.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:12 PM CK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:22 PM robinrohan has responded

CK
Member (Idle past 2239 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 294 of 306 (319194)
06-08-2006 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by robinrohan
06-08-2006 4:17 PM


Re: ck
So when do you think you first started to think in a serious manner "what's out there/what's not out there?"

I think I was about 13 or 14 - I was nominally christian but the more I read the book, the less it made sense to me (well besides as a story).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by robinrohan, posted 06-08-2006 4:17 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by robinrohan, posted 06-08-2006 4:35 PM CK has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 306 (319200)
06-08-2006 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by CK
06-08-2006 4:22 PM


Re: ck
So when do you think you first started to think in a serious manner "what's out there/what's not out there?"

I think when I went off to college, age 18. I got very interested in philosophy and almost majored in it, but I liked writing so much I went with Lit.

In my twenties, I called myself an "aesthete," but then I decided that sounded effeminate, remindful of Oscar Wilde or someone like that, so I changed it to "nihilist," which has a rugged masculine ring to it. But it's basically the same idea, in another form.

So I really haven't changed at all, in all that time. I'm 57.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:22 PM CK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:59 PM robinrohan has responded

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 296 of 306 (319203)
06-08-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by robinrohan
06-08-2006 4:07 PM


It's not necesarily negative that we have no formal purpose.

Your right, its not neccessarily negetive, its just negetive for me.

I didn't realize you posted for Charles, the whole ck when over my head. I'll let you guys chat this one out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by robinrohan, posted 06-08-2006 4:07 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by robinrohan, posted 06-08-2006 4:39 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 298 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:42 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 297 of 306 (319204)
06-08-2006 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by New Cat's Eye
06-08-2006 4:38 PM


You're welcome to chat. He just asked about it, and so I addressed the post to him.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2006 4:38 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

CK
Member (Idle past 2239 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 298 of 306 (319205)
06-08-2006 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by New Cat's Eye
06-08-2006 4:38 PM


Well look - you'd round us out nicely - a believer, an atheist (or maybe I'm a agnostic - we can discuss it) and a nihilist.

So let me ask you the same - how do you come to your faith? has it always been there?

Edited by CK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2006 4:38 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2006 4:51 PM CK has responded

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 299 of 306 (319208)
06-08-2006 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by CK
06-08-2006 4:42 PM


So let me ask you the same - how do you come to your faith? has it always been there?

I was raised Catholic, grade school and high school.

Then I went to college and was an atheist.

Then I found faith in Jesus again.

That makes me a christian and since I was raised Catholic I figured I'd call myself that. I haven't been to church in a while though.

I'm one of those "cafeteria catholics" (from The DaVinci Code).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:42 PM CK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 5:04 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

CK
Member (Idle past 2239 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 300 of 306 (319209)
06-08-2006 4:54 PM


Admin input required - near end of thread
Hi - the genesis of the chat that has taken over the tail-end of this thread can be seen here:

www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=32&t=37&m=211 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=32&t=37&m=211">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=32&t=37&m=211

I writes:

I've said it before and I'll say it again - everyone we have here is generally pretty convinced of their position. I actually don't know very much about the position that Robin takes and I don't think than a desire to know more has to take place in the normal point-scoring manner we have around here. I think we could do with a few more threads where we just chat.

I am not interested in carrying this on as a debate - this is a dialogue and I am keen to try and keep it this way. It's an opportunity for a couple of us (I'd like Catholic scientist to carry on with us if he'd like as well) to talk out our positions and for others to consider how we got there. It does not require anyone to point out "you are wrong about X,y,z".

Would there be any objection from mod/admin from us carrying this on in the coffee shop or would you prefer it somewhere else?

Edited by CK, : Fix tag.

Edited by CK, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by robinrohan, posted 06-08-2006 4:57 PM CK has responded

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