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Author Topic:   God the father
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 1 of 117 (651861)
02-10-2012 4:21 PM


"Our Father who art in heaven...."
"...Father, Son and Holy Ghost...."
It seems to me that one of the themes of Christianity is that God is the ultimate father figure. He is described as having perfect love, perfect mercy and perfect justice for us. He is also described as being a jealous God and ready, willing and able to condemn anyone who doesn't believe in him and keep (some of) his laws to eternal suffering.
This, of course, makes no sense.
I have a son. I love him unconditionally. He's 20, so my days of having any meaningful say in how he lives his life are dwindling. I have tried to raise him to be a good person. To that end, I have from time to time had to punish him in various ways for various transgressions. It makes me sad when I have to punish him, because I hate to see him unhappy. But I know that sometimes it must be done to try to make him a better person. I have tried to do this in a manner that will teach him what mistake he made and show him not to repeat that mistake. As you can imagine, these efforts have met with mixed success.
On the whole, however, he has turned into an intelligent, compassionate, caring young man, one that, with all the hubris of a parent, I am proud of.
I cannot imagine anything that he could do that would make me want him to spend eternity suffering. It seems that one of the biggest transgressions one can commit against a god is to deny his existence. If my son were to disown me and never want to have anything to do with me again, I would be profoundly sad. There may be nothing that would make me sadder. But I certainly wouldn't want my son to suffer for the rest of this life, much less for all of eternity, just because he disowned me. I might be very angry at him depending on his reasons for disowning me. But wish him to suffer? No. I love him too much to ever want to see him suffer for anything. His well being is more important to me than my own. So the very idea of wanting him to suffer because he offended me is ludicrous beyond words.
So please, someone, explain to me how the god of the bible can be considered all-loving and still allow anyone to suffer forever, much less impose the suffering on them himself? I don't know what you call that kind of a being, but it sure isn't a father.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 02-10-2012 4:33 PM subbie has replied
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 02-10-2012 8:56 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied
 Message 24 by GDR, posted 02-10-2012 10:25 PM subbie has replied
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2012 2:35 AM subbie has replied
 Message 29 by Chuck77, posted 02-11-2012 6:31 AM subbie has replied
 Message 44 by marc9000, posted 02-12-2012 4:40 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied
 Message 97 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-15-2012 1:22 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 4 of 117 (651868)
02-10-2012 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jon
02-10-2012 4:33 PM


Which is irrelevant to my question. How can a loving father condemn a child to eternal suffering?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 02-10-2012 4:33 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:00 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 6 of 117 (651874)
02-10-2012 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
02-10-2012 5:00 PM


Any father that at one time or another not wanted to throttle his offspring is just not being honest.
Guilty. At one time or another. But of course, that's a far cry from wanting him to suffer for eternity.
But do you really want a discussion on the subject and how some Christians see the issue or just want to rail at fundies?
I'd love to see anyone's take.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:07 PM subbie has replied
 Message 112 by Technical user, posted 03-28-2012 11:08 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 8 of 117 (651878)
02-10-2012 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
02-10-2012 5:07 PM


Re: One Christian Priest's take on the subject.
Is that anything more than simply ignoring part of the bible that you don't like?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:15 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 10 of 117 (651883)
02-10-2012 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
02-10-2012 5:15 PM


Re: One Christian Priest's take on the subject.
And so we ignore that part?
Please, don't misunderstand me. I'm seriously not trying to goad you or pick at you. I'm just trying to understand, and it sounds to me like that's what you're saying.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:29 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 12 of 117 (651887)
02-10-2012 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
02-10-2012 5:29 PM


Re: One Christian Priest's take on the subject.
Right. I get that.
So what do you do with the parts of the bible that say accept God or go to hell? If your position is that they were written for a different time, does that mean that they can be ignored today? If it doesn't mean that, what does it mean to you?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:35 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 14 of 117 (651894)
02-10-2012 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
02-10-2012 5:35 PM


Re: One Christian Priest's take on the subject.
So it sounds like you agree with me that the idea of a loving god sending anyone to suffer for eternity is inconsistent.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 6:03 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 16 of 117 (651900)
02-10-2012 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
02-10-2012 6:03 PM


Re: One Christian Priest's take on the subject.
Again, it really helps if we were specific on Chapter and Verse, not being difficult but all too often it turns out that what is being marketed is something taken out of context.
I fully appreciate that. But I'm not really so interested in exegesis of a particular verse as I am the concept in general.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 6:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 7:17 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 18 of 117 (651915)
02-10-2012 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
02-10-2012 7:17 PM


Re: One Christian Priest's take on the subject.
Okay. Thanks!

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 7:17 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 25 of 117 (651937)
02-10-2012 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by GDR
02-10-2012 10:25 PM


Wonderful sermon, padre. But you never really addressed my question.
Do sinners go to hell and suffer for eternity?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by GDR, posted 02-10-2012 10:25 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by GDR, posted 02-11-2012 12:07 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied
 Message 34 by purpledawn, posted 02-12-2012 7:22 AM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 31 of 117 (651991)
02-11-2012 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
02-11-2012 2:35 AM


Well, that has fuck all to do with my question.
RAmen

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2012 2:35 AM ICANT has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 32 of 117 (651992)
02-11-2012 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Chuck77
02-11-2012 6:31 AM


Re: God's not everyones Father but He is still loving
More crap that's nonresponsive to my question.
Edited by subbie, : Tyop

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Chuck77, posted 02-11-2012 6:31 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by AdminModulous, posted 02-11-2012 12:32 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 36 of 117 (652087)
02-12-2012 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
02-12-2012 8:45 AM


Re: No Suffering or Eternal Torture
Buz, just a couple simple questions.
Do you have any children?
If you believed that they were going to suffer forever, wouldn't you do anything to save them from that, including taking it on yourself?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 02-12-2012 8:45 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 37 of 117 (652090)
02-12-2012 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by purpledawn
02-12-2012 7:22 AM


Re: No Suffering or Eternal Torture
Well, your position certainly seems less cruel. But let's examine it more closely through the lens of my parental analogy.
I imagine that you think that your conception is a natural consequence of the idea that God gave us free will to accept or reject him. The consequence of death and the end of existence is nothing more than the result of exercising one's free will and rejecting God.
Consider a child who has overdosed on some drug. That child's death is the consequence of his free choice to decide to use drugs. If your child were to overdose, wouldn't you do everything in your power to keep your child from dying? I think any loving parent would. How is this different from a loving God letting some die and some live forever, just because his vanity was pricked?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by purpledawn, posted 02-12-2012 7:22 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by purpledawn, posted 02-12-2012 7:50 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 99 of 117 (652711)
02-15-2012 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by New Cat's Eye
02-15-2012 1:22 PM


What if disowning you was equated with suffering for eternity?
My ego doesn't allow me to even consider that as a rational possibility.
However, just to entertain your hypothetical, I would always allow him the chance to change his mind and return to me, even after death.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-15-2012 1:22 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
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