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Author Topic:   God the father
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 117 (651930)
02-10-2012 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by subbie
02-10-2012 4:21 PM


subbie writes:
"Our Father who art in heaven...."
"...Father, Son and Holy Ghost...."
Yes, he, Jehovah, the only evident existing god resides in some specific location of our Universe, according to the Biblical record.
It seems to me that one of the themes of Christianity is that God is the ultimate father figure.
He's god of all, father of holy Spirit born humans who willingly call upon him, receiving the salvation which he offers all who repent of sin, receiving his son, Jesus, as lord and savior.
He is described as having perfect love, perfect mercy and perfect justice for all. Justice does not always exonerate. Perfect justice condemns the guilty. We all are guilty, but Jesus filled the role of sacrificial lamb of God, took our guilt upon himself, dying for us that we may live. Thus, no more animal sacrifices, he the guiltless, dying for all that whoever will may be saved. That's the gospel of salvation which loving Jehovah offers, willing that none perish but that all would come to repentance.
subbie writes:
He is also described as being a jealous God and ready, willing and able to condemn anyone who doesn't believe in him and keep (some of) his laws to eternal suffering.
This, of course, makes no sense.
He is described as slow to anger, not willing that any should perish, Jesus coming, not to condemn the world (John 3:17) but to save all who would believe in him and come to him.
subbie writes:
I have a son. I love him unconditionally. He's 20, so my days of having any meaningful say in how he lives his life are dwindling. I have tried to raise him to be a good person. To that end, I have from time to time had to punish him in various ways for various transgressions. It makes me sad when I have to punish him, because I hate to see him unhappy. But I know that sometimes it must be done to try to make him a better person. I have tried to do this in a manner that will teach him what mistake he made and show him not to repeat that mistake. As you can imagine, these efforts have met with mixed success.
The NT says believers in Jesus are God's children. Regarding punishment, it says "Whom he loves, he chastens." One only chastens one's own because he loves them.
On the whole, however, he has turned into an intelligent, compassionate, caring young man, one that, with all the hubris of a parent, I am proud of.
I cannot imagine anything that he could do that would make me want him to spend eternity suffering. It seems that one of the biggest transgressions one can commit against a god is to deny his existence. If my son were to disown me and never want to have anything to do with me again, I would be profoundly sad. There may be nothing that would make me sadder. But I certainly wouldn't want my son to suffer for the rest of this life, much less for all of eternity, just because he disowned me. I might be very angry at him depending on his reasons for disowning me. But wish him to suffer? No. I love him too much to ever want to see him suffer for anything. His well being is more important to me than my own. So the very idea of wanting him to suffer because he offended me is ludicrous beyond words.
subbieSo please, someone, explain to me how the god of the bible can be considered all-loving and still allow anyone to suffer forever, much less impose the suffering on them himself? I don't know what you call that kind of a being, but it sure isn't a father.
Again, he's only father to those who have submitted themselves to him to be their father. He chastens his own children so that they may not be condemned with the ones who have rejected him.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by subbie, posted 02-10-2012 4:21 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 117 (652075)
02-12-2012 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by purpledawn
02-12-2012 7:22 AM


Re: No Suffering or Eternal Torture
PD writes:
subbie writes:
Do sinners go to hell and suffer for eternity?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No. Hell is nothing more than the grave, which is where we all end up eventually.
If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living".
IOW being tormented throughout his eternal life, but only the righteous receive eternal life.
Therefore the punishment is death, which is eternal in the sense that it is a permanent judgment. No resurrection.
Eternal life is for the righteous and all others just cease to exist.
Hi PD. Nice to see you posting again.
I would hope that somehow I'm wrong, but that's not what either Jesus or the apostles taught. They all spoke in terms of eternal suffering. A couple of examples coming to mind are the rich man in hell and when Jesus advised that if one's eye offend him, pluck it out rather to have it cast into the lake of fire. The same with the hand. Elsewhere it is described as a place where the "worm dies not" and there's "gnawing and gnashing of the teeth." etc.
What do you do with things like that? If they're metaphorical and death is the end, why all of these warnings?
I've thought about this a lot. I tend to believe it's literal. I'm assuming that they all meant what they said, hoping otherwise. Due to what's at stake for eternity, IMO, one is foolish to waive it all off as if Jesus said it all with a wink.
We intelligent humans, unlike brute beasts, were created in the image of God who is indestructible and eternal.. Perhaps that's the case with humans. Like god, we are indestructible. What pertains to Satan, the fallen angels and unredeemed humans relative to the lake of fire (Revelation 20, etc) likely pertains to them.
Thus, imo, the great price Jesus paid on the cross so as to afford a means of salvation from such a horrible fate.
There are warnings throughout the Bible to fear Jehovah. He is not in this Universe to serve our desires. He created us solely for his purpose and pleasure and purpose. If he be real and god, he determines what is just and what best suits his purpose
What ever we humns make or create for ourselves may be solely for whatever purpose we make it for. We do what we want with it. This applies to God also.
Many will argue that therefore Jehovah is a terrible god. Regardless of what they think, if he be god, we itty bitty creatures on this itty bitty planet would be foolish to shake our itty bitty little fists at the majesty/creator/manager of the Universe and blaspheme him.
Jehovah is slow to anger, gracious and good in that he provided salvation and blesses those who honor him. He is not willing that any would perish and be cast into hell He both blesses and curses, depending on how he is regarded by humans.
The alternative to eternal hell fire is bliss beyond imagination. I've assessed the evidence. I know he exists. I have not fear or anxiety about death whatsoever. My desire is that all would come to repentence, submit to God and share my hope.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by purpledawn, posted 02-12-2012 7:22 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by subbie, posted 02-12-2012 10:56 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 38 by frako, posted 02-12-2012 12:09 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 39 by jar, posted 02-12-2012 12:22 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 46 by purpledawn, posted 02-12-2012 7:32 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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