God the father

Well, that has fuck all to do with my question.RAmen

More crap that's nonresponsive to my question.Edited by subbie, : Tyop

No response is preferred over this kind of response. Your last three posts (Message 31 and Message 53) could well have earned a similar statement. I shouldn't think I need explain further.

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Do sinners go to hell and suffer for eternity?

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No. Hell is nothing more than the grave, which is where we all end up eventually.If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living".
IOW being tormented throughout his eternal life, but only the righteous receive eternal life.Therefore the punishment is death, which is eternal in the sense that it is a permanent judgment. No resurrection.Eternal life is for the righteous and all others just cease to exist.

Hi PD. Nice to see you posting again.I would hope that somehow I'm wrong, but that's not what either Jesus or the apostles taught. They all spoke in terms of eternal suffering. A couple of examples coming to mind are the rich man in hell and when Jesus advised that if one's eye offend him, pluck it out rather to have it cast into the lake of fire. The same with the hand. Elsewhere it is described as a place where the "worm dies not" and there's "gnawing and gnashing of the teeth." etc.What do you do with things like that? If they're metaphorical and death is the end, why all of these warnings?I've thought about this a lot. I tend to believe it's literal. I'm assuming that they all meant what they said, hoping otherwise. Due to what's at stake for eternity, IMO, one is foolish to waive it all off as if Jesus said it all with a wink.We intelligent humans, unlike brute beasts, were created in the image of God who is indestructible and eternal.. Perhaps that's the case with humans. Like god, we are indestructible. What pertains to Satan, the fallen angels and unredeemed humans relative to the lake of fire (Revelation 20, etc) likely pertains to them.Thus, imo, the great price Jesus paid on the cross so as to afford a means of salvation from such a horrible fate.There are warnings throughout the Bible to fear Jehovah. He is not in this Universe to serve our desires. He created us solely for his purpose and pleasure and purpose. If he be real and god, he determines what is just and what best suits his purposeWhat ever we humns make or create for ourselves may be solely for whatever purpose we make it for. We do what we want with it. This applies to God also.Many will argue that therefore Jehovah is a terrible god. Regardless of what they think, if he be god, we itty bitty creatures on this itty bitty planet would be foolish to shake our itty bitty little fists at the majesty/creator/manager of the Universe and blaspheme him.Jehovah is slow to anger, gracious and good in that he provided salvation and blesses those who honor him. He is not willing that any would perish and be cast into hell He both blesses and curses, depending on how he is regarded by humans.The alternative to eternal hell fire is bliss beyond imagination. I've assessed the evidence. I know he exists. I have not fear or anxiety about death whatsoever. My desire is that all would come to repentence, submit to God and share my hope.

Buz, just a couple simple questions.Do you have any children?If you believed that they were going to suffer forever, wouldn't you do anything to save them from that, including taking it on yourself?

Well, your position certainly seems less cruel. But let's examine it more closely through the lens of my parental analogy.I imagine that you think that your conception is a natural consequence of the idea that God gave us free will to accept or reject him. The consequence of death and the end of existence is nothing more than the result of exercising one's free will and rejecting God.Consider a child who has overdosed on some drug. That child's death is the consequence of his free choice to decide to use drugs. If your child were to overdose, wouldn't you do everything in your power to keep your child from dying? I think any loving parent would. How is this different from a loving God letting some die and some live forever, just because his vanity was pricked?

Yea but we havent yet made any thing with inteligence like artificial inteligence.And if we do what do you think we would do when we make say a robot with artificial intelligence.Would we:A) implant a subroutine that would prevent the intelligence from doing anything that goes against our wishes, say enslaving human kind, but still allow it to do anything else.B) Tell the robot if it dosent follow da rulz we are going to hook him up to a torture device made especially for robots for all eternity.C) implant an off switch if the robot does something wrong anyone can turn it off.d) other

I'm sorry Buz but that just makes the god you try to market look really dumb and limited in addition to being really evil and worthy of nothing but contempt.The Bible also tells us the humans are capable of determining what is just and that when god is being unjust, humans need to dope slap the boy and set her straight.Have you ever actually read the Bible Buz?

Show me a couple of places where the collection of books says this? You know that Buz has read the Bible...he just interprets it differently than you do...don't sound like a broken record!I also see no evidence that Jesus ever tells anyone to correct him if he is wrong.

Have you ever read the Bible Phat?Genesis 3: (that's really early in the book and I've actually pointed it out to you in the past)

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22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

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andGenesis 18 (that's early in the book too)

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20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

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21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

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22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

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23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

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24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

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25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

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26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

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27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:

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28Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

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29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

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30And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

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31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

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32And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

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33And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

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And no, I don't know that Buz has ever read the Bible, and in fact all the evidence so far is that he has not. That's why he tries to not give actual Chapter and Verse to support his nonsense because every time he has what is actually written refutes his assertion.

OK, but when the book says "And the LORD said..." surely one doesn't think that an actual booming voice spoke out! Humans were just telling other humans a story...right? I'm not saying that the stories were not inspired, but why on earth would a storyteller make God out to be imperfect and correctable, as if He is some out of touch parent who doesn't know how to program the i-phone?This whole idea of correcting God plays well in educating humans as to their responsibility, but it doesn't say much for the God YOU seem to be marketing. The Creator of all seen and unseen would be far more intelligent, no?

Why, what does intelligence have to do with anything?The point is that if you are honest, then you must honestly acknowledge what the story actually says, and the story actually says that humans have the capability to know as much as god when it come to what is right and wrong, good and evil, and that humans need to point out to god when god is not being just.The story may not say what you want it to say but that is what it actually says.

IMO it's important to note the presence of Satan, when addressing questions of God's actions.Satan's Rebellion and Fall | Learn The Bible | LearnTheBible.orgGod has been in conflict with Satan since before the world began, and the conflict goes on today. The simple question is why God doesn't destroy Satan now, or why he ever let him have the power he has, and no one can come up with a simple answer.Satan is called the father of lies, the great deceiver, and other things that all the problems of the world can be traced too. He is behind false religions like Islam, he is behind the atheism of common descent, he is behind the separation of God from his children.The difference we're probably going to have is that you blame God for it and I don't, I blame Satan for it. What God wants, and what he allows, are completely different.The Bible says that God has ONE perfect plan. The presence and actions of Satan somehow fit in, yet are temporary. We'll find out how it all works someday. We can decide we don't like what we're seeing, but that doesn't necessarily change it, or make it wrong. If you could loosen up with the Satan inspired desires to challenge and judge God, you could possibly go a long way towards understanding him and developing a relationship with him.

Gotta ask if you have ever read the Bible. According to the Bible, god is not in conflict with Satan, and in fact Satan is simply a servant carrying out God's orders.