Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   An example of speciation in action?
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 3 of 15 (654233)
02-28-2012 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by aiki
02-28-2012 3:14 AM


But they're still birds...
Actually, this is interesting. I would be interested to see when they decide to actually classify them as new species, and who gets the right to name the WNWers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by aiki, posted 02-28-2012 3:14 AM aiki has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Granny Magda, posted 02-28-2012 10:50 AM Perdition has replied
 Message 6 by aiki, posted 02-28-2012 12:30 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 8 of 15 (654256)
02-28-2012 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Granny Magda
02-28-2012 10:50 AM


I think that we're well away from the point where we could call these WNW birds a new species. I've seen one of these winter blackcaps and they look, sound and (save for migration) act just like the regular birds.
Fair enough. Who determines how much difference is needed, though? I know the definition of species is up to interpretation, but who is the arbiter?
It certainly is an interesting example of reproductive isolation though.
It certainly is. And Aiki says that the two populations can breed, but often don't because of the timing of their arrivals. Would a speciation event require them to be unable to interbreed, or is it enough to simply show that they tend not to?
In the Green Warbler example RAZD has brought up, there seems to be multiple species that can interbreed with the ones near them, until the ring closes and the two "ends" can't. Or is there only one species...or is there two, with some undefined line somewhere in the middle? The picture, with the multiple colors shading into each other seems to indicate multiple, interbreeding species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Granny Magda, posted 02-28-2012 10:50 AM Granny Magda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Modulous, posted 02-28-2012 1:41 PM Perdition has not replied
 Message 11 by Wounded King, posted 02-28-2012 1:45 PM Perdition has not replied
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2012 2:20 PM Perdition has not replied
 Message 14 by caffeine, posted 02-29-2012 6:06 AM Perdition has seen this message but not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 9 of 15 (654257)
02-28-2012 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by aiki
02-28-2012 12:30 PM


Well, as with any mutation, they need to grant the ability to exploit a food source or exploit an old one better, to be beneficial. The fact that the food source is left out by people is almost irrelevant. If the people stopped, the mutation would no longer be beneficial, but this is no different than any other environmental change that removes a food source.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by aiki, posted 02-28-2012 12:30 PM aiki has seen this message but not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 13 of 15 (654268)
02-28-2012 3:23 PM


Thanks All
Thanks to everyone that responded, especially for the new term (demes).
I knew it was sort of a personal choice for when to split the two into different species, but demes seems to be a very good middle ground.

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024