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Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The 50-50-50-50-50 tax and economic plan. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Republicans and libertarians talk about having a simple flat tax system.
Okay. Let's go further and combine the tax system with the benefit system to create one simple easy to administer plan:
Something for everyone to hate ... Fully fund medicare (A, B, C and D) for everyone. Let people buy "gap" insurance for what they want to cover in addition to the medicare coverage with a single payer no deductible plan. Eliminate minimum wage requirements (this is covered by the $50/day benefit). Eliminate welfare, social security, unemployment, food stamp, etc state and federal programs and management. All tax funds left over after budget go to reduce the national debt. Once the debt is eliminated the tax rate can be adjusted annually to match the budget requirements. The money sent to the states shall be used to:
Your paycheck will only have your wages shown: you are responsible for reporting income over $50,000.00 and paying the tax on it. All paycheck deductions are eliminated because they are paid by other means. Your W-2 will show the annual wages. The forms filed by the companies only need show annual wages paid. With no minimum wage and simplified forms this truly benefits small businesses and promotes job growth, and it allows people to add to their minimum wage by working at will without losing benefits. abe: it should also eliminate poverty /abe Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : (abe) per Rahvin comment Edited by RAZD, : {abe} per reply 43 Edited by RAZD, : clrty Edited by RAZD, : deleted retirementby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4032 Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
I like the general idea of consolidating the social safety net into a single program. Certainly I prefer single-payer healthcare. I like the idea of mandatory retirement (it helps new generations find work), but at the same time I wonder if 50 is too young, considering life expectancies and the fact that you're basically forcing a lot of your most skilled individuals out of work at the peak of their careers.
But it's rather difficult to comment further without seeing some real budget math...and I somehow doubt that you as an individual have the time or resources to calculate expected tax revenue under this plan and determine whether that single revenue source would be sufficient to pay for the rest of your plans after redundant programs are cancelled. I'm also not sure property taxes should be abolished. I don't necessarily think that a poor family in a $100,000 home (hey, I live in CA, that's a mud hut here) should pay a lot in property tax, but I do think that Donald Trump should pay some taxes on the real estate he uses to pay for the dead muskrats he wears on his bald head. And what about sales tax? I don't see a need to charge tax for food, but maybe we should be taxed on obvious luxury goods? In principle, though, your ideas make more social sense to me than any "flat tax" proposal I've seen from lolbertarians and Republicans.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Rahvin,
In principle, though, your ideas make more social sense to me than any "flat tax" proposal I've seen from lolbertarians and Republicans. Darn, you're supposed to hate flat taxes on principle ...
And what about sales tax? I don't see a need to charge tax for food, but maybe we should be taxed on obvious luxury goods? Eliminate it -- how you define "obvious luxury" probably differs from Donald's. I meant to have this included in the state share as well. (see abe)
I'm also not sure property taxes should be abolished. I don't necessarily think that a poor family in a $100,000 home (hey, I live in CA, that's a mud hut here) should pay a lot in property tax, but I do think that Donald Trump should pay some taxes on the real estate he uses to pay for the dead muskrats he wears on his bald head. Why should you pay tax multiple times on something you already own? Donald's chunk would come from his 50% on earnings over $50k. This would also ensure that elderly\disabled\pensioners could stay in their houses and not be taxed into foreclosure.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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give every registered tax payer $50 per day (= $18,250.00 per year) Prices will rise to meet the increase in income. You will see a spike in inflation that will wipe out any benefit from this plan.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Taq,
Prices will rise to meet the increase in income. ... Prices may rise in response to greater spending, which means the economy will grow. Why would the price of milk go up if demand is constant? It may end up being cheaper to produce some products (lower net wages paid by (especially small) business with no tax deductions included in costs), so small business profits can increase without price hikes.
You will see a spike in inflation that will wipe out any benefit from this plan. Which will reduce debt load on borrowers, allowing them greater ability to pay off debts. Interest rates will drop. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
They too would be taxed on earnings over $50k/year, and small start up businesses would be eligible for $50/day benefits (based on work completed).
Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
On another thread I mentioned that I read an article that said there will be a point where people will need to be paid to consume, due to population growth and productivity improvements, in order to maintain the economy as we know it.
This may seem an outlandish concept at first ... but wait: Look at all the agricultural assistance programs, especially where farmers are paid to NOT grow crops in order to keep prices up and competitive so farmers can make a living? This is paying people to do nothing, isn't it? Of course those people continue to consume products, so the foot is already in the door. But why should farmers be the only ones to benefit from such programs? If there are fewer jobs than job seekers, then shouldn't the same logic be applied and some job seekers should be paid to not work? Wouldn't this make the job market more competitive and provide the same kind of benefit that the farmers get? So why not give everybody a "consumer stipend" of $50 per day in return for being a tax filing citizen of the USA and as a reward for being a law abiding (ie not in jail) member of the US economy? Or think of it as a dividend for being a share-holder in the US economy. This would eliminate poverty in the US and give everyone a boost. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : workers Edited by RAZD, : law Edited by RAZD, : povertyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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Prices will rise to meet the increase in income. Only if output can't be increased. With unemployment and underemployment high, factories idle, the abundant evidence is that there's plenty of slack in output to take up the increase in income. Prices won't rise as long as output can rise. Economics 101.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
mandatory retirement at 50. What does "mandatory retirement" mean?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi crashfrog,
What does "mandatory retirement" mean? It means you stop working for somebody else. It means executives step down and let the next generation take the reins. But mostly it's included here because americans seem to have some kind of aversion to the whole idea of having lots of leisure time ... Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.7
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Let's see some numbers then? I strongly suspect that, in fact, the system you're suggesting just plain won't work. Citizen income (aka negative income tax systems) just don't stand up in the cold light of day.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Mr Jack
Let's see some numbers then? I strongly suspect that, in fact, the system you're suggesting just plain won't work. Citizen income (aka negative income tax systems) just don't stand up in the cold light of day. It's always easy to assert your opinion, isn't it? Do you know of instances where such programs have been used in complete saturation of the population? Redirect Notice '@Livable4All - 1975 Mincome Article (newspaper article discussing the program) Livable Income For Everyone - Manitoba Mincome
quote: Looks to me like (a) your assertion is false and (b) that there are many other (social) benefits for the people than just increased income: better health and better education. Better health also leads to lower health costs, and the better education leads to better paying jobs.
quote: bold added ... Again, this falsifies your assertion. ... that's two studies of a saturation program that show similar positive economic results AND additional social benefits.
quote: It not only gets people out of poverty, and improve their health and education, it gives them the independence to control their lives. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : addedby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.7 |
Numbers, RAZD. Show us some numbers indicating that your apparently arbitrary set of 50s adds up to coherent budget.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
It means you stop working for somebody else. Or what? I mean, is that enforced by legislation? Is it illegal to employ someone older than 50? What about in an advisory capacity? Suppose you need a COBOL programmer or need to consult with the guy who designed the tires on the Lunar Rover. Is it illegal to work past the age of 50? What if your idea of retirement is running a wine bar or a youth hostel? Or developing apps for the iPhone? My father-in-law retired from being Dean of Students so he could drive a school bus a couple of times a week. It's just beer money for him, something to get him out of the house. I don't expect I'll ever really "retire"; I anticipate my twilight years will include revenue generation just for fun and extra scratch. Why not? What about granny porn?
But mostly it's included here because americans seem to have some kind of aversion to the whole idea of having lots of leisure time ... Obviously there are many people who can't afford to take the "leisure time" they desire to, but the notion that the culmination of a successful career should always be idle unemployment is an artifact of your generation, RAZD, not mine.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Mr Jack
Message 11: ... Citizen income (aka negative income tax systems) just don't stand up in the cold light of day. Why don't you provide evidence that this is true rather than just an assertion. Rather difficult imho, due to the information that I have provided which shows it is false. Now we can argue about the actual amounts provided, but not about whether or not this does work in general -- we have different cases on hand that show it does.
Numbers, RAZD. Show us some numbers indicating that your apparently arbitrary set of 50s adds up to coherent budget. Look up ther numbers in the references to see what they used (the information is there). Then we can argue about the effect of different $$ amounts eh? I also repeat:
quote: In other words more people would have participated if the numbers they used had been higher ... We also know from the BIGNAM results that the return was more than the investment, which would also indicate that more investment would increase returns. Do you have any evidence to counter that? Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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