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Author Topic:   Evolution and Specialness of Humanity
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 316 (248984)
10-04-2005 9:42 PM


quote:
What is your theory of origins so far?
Concerning human origins, I believe that all meaning and significance to life on earth, relationships with peers, and other humans is lost in the theory of evolution. I feel that I become part of "just another species", and any dignity, or specialness that I may have just loses all of it's value within evolution. What is there to live for, to strive to become, to live a "good" life when I am just a silly creature, without any value higher than that of any another organism's. I don't see the motivation this way. For this, I simply cannot accept evolution as the way things happen. Starting with a blank earth with basic elements, add energy, and more complex substances materialize, (Oparin's Hypothesis) from there over time the complexities increase, as shown clearly in the famous "Miller and Urey" experiment, re-done hundreds of times.
I can see the evidence, it's obviously there, within the Fossil Record it is plain as day. As sketchy as it is, the evidence simply sways towards evolution.
But given the conditions of my environment, and how I feel inside humanity, evolution is false, and it is an expression of the forgotten God. Evolution attempts to make me feel small, not unique, to make everything insignificant, nothing matters in life, my discussions here are worthless, and when I die, I will lose my soul, and my shell will rot in the ground, Love becomes non-existant, and feeling for others is lost. I don't see it the world's way, and I never will, if bigfoot was found, and we could watch evolution happen somehow, I would never fall in to the illusion, I am special.
This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 10-04-2005 08:41 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 9:49 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 10-04-2005 10:51 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 5 by coffee_addict, posted 10-04-2005 11:22 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 6 by Nuggin, posted 10-04-2005 11:44 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 17 by Heathen, posted 10-05-2005 7:35 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 10-17-2005 5:35 AM joshua221 has replied
 Message 216 by Lizard Breath, posted 10-17-2005 9:03 AM joshua221 has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 316 (248985)
10-04-2005 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
10-04-2005 9:42 PM


Okay, let talk about special
So you would like to think you're special, that there is a GOD, is a Heaven, is Salvation?
This message has been edited by jar, 10-04-2005 08:58 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 10-04-2005 9:42 PM joshua221 has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 3 of 316 (248986)
10-04-2005 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
10-04-2005 9:42 PM


Evolution attempts to make me feel small, not unique, to make everything insignificant, nothing matters in life, my discussions here are worthless, and when I die, I will lose my soul, and my shell will rot in the ground, Love becomes non-existant, and feeling for others is lost.
I have a different view of evolution. It tells me that "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "love your neighbor as yourself" really are our purpose in life. We are members of species that depends very much on one another. We do need each other. We are important to one another.
So you really are very special, prophex.
Did you follow What to believe, crisis of faith? Aztraph had some of the same concerns as you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 10-04-2005 9:42 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by joshua221, posted 10-05-2005 6:47 PM nwr has not replied

JustinC
Member (Idle past 4834 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 4 of 316 (248987)
10-04-2005 11:06 PM


I never understood why it matters how we got to be the way we are. Specialness seems like it would be an inherent quality of an object, not something that hinges on its origins.
If we found out diamonds were made by a different process than the presently understood one, would it make them anyless special?

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by joshua221, posted 10-05-2005 6:53 PM JustinC has replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 467 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 5 of 316 (248989)
10-04-2005 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
10-04-2005 9:42 PM


On the contrary, I feel special knowing that my ancestors were able to survive the evolutionary process and achieved sentience while many others died.
Think of it this way.
Say that you are a member of the French aristocracy. Would you have been more proud if your father wasn't an aristocrat and that he had to work really hard to get the family the title OR that your family had always been an aristocratic family for as long as civilization itself?
For the first time in Earth's history, a species emerged from mere animals to building structures that lasted thousands of years. This species was able to use tools on a level that no other species had been able to. This species drew works of art on stone walls that depicted their culture and beliefs. In other words, they worked their way up to this point in time.
I don't know about you, but I am damn proud of what humanity have been able to achieve while many other species who we believe also achieved sentience but never survived to tell the tale.
When my family first came to the states, we were dirt poor and we were homeless. Heck, we were uneducated and we didn't know a word of English. Now, my oldest sister is an electrical engineer, my oldest brother is an architect, my older sister is a mathematician working for the government researching something about nuclear stuff... big secret (they actually sent federal agents to our house to ask question about her before they gave her access), and my older brother is a software engineer. I'm the spoiled one who is still in school.
Should I be ashamed that we had a very humble beginning and start believing that god gave us all what we achieved or should I be proud that we worked really hard to get where we are?
When I look at our species and what we have achieved (yes, the planet would have done better without us), I am always proud that we actually made it and not ended up extinct or still climbing trees and scratching each others'
ABE
But hey, if you'd rather deny your humble beginning and prefer to believe that all your most valuable possessions (knowledge and education) simply fell from the sky and landed on your head, more power to you! Some of us actually look back and feel proud of the hard work we have done.
Just curious, do you also believe that god built the pyramids and other wonders of the world as well? After all, we mere humans couldn't have built such magnificent structures, right?
This message has been edited by Jacen, 10-04-2005 11:26 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 10-04-2005 9:42 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by joshua221, posted 10-05-2005 7:19 PM coffee_addict has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2483 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 6 of 316 (248990)
10-04-2005 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
10-04-2005 9:42 PM


So you'd rather lie to yourself...
So, let me get this straight. You agree that the evidence is there, but you don't want to believe in evolution because you think evolution means that you aren't important.
First problem - Where in evolution does it say that? How do you know that you aren't carrying "THE" gene? The immunity to the 2014 Avian Flu Pandemic, or whatever. You can have evolved and still be special.
Second problem - There are SIX BILLION people on the planet. How special did you think you were in the first place?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 10-04-2005 9:42 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by joshua221, posted 10-05-2005 6:59 PM Nuggin has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 316 (249218)
10-05-2005 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
10-04-2005 10:51 PM


quote:
I have a different view of evolution. It tells me that "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "love your neighbor as yourself" really are our purpose in life. We are members of species that depends very much on one another. We do need each other. We are important to one another.
Wait, I know this book! (love your neighbor) Bible
According to evolution, we need each other to survive, but I don't think of survival when I befriend someone, or when I talk with my friends. Any emotion involved becomes simply "part of the process", and does not retain it's beauty.

empathy is non-existant as we reign terror on others

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 10-04-2005 10:51 PM nwr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 10-05-2005 6:57 PM joshua221 has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 316 (249220)
10-05-2005 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by JustinC
10-04-2005 11:06 PM


quote:
If we found out diamonds were made by a different process than the presently understood one, would it make them anyless special?
Well they probably wouldn't be as rare, making them less sought after, elimintating the millions of years of pressure.
quote:
I never understood why it matters how we got to be the way we are. Specialness seems like it would be an inherent quality of an object, not something that hinges on its origins.
Specialness doesn't hinge directly on how a certain thing came to be, but in our case with humanity I feel that it mos def does. The process of survival eliminates a meaningful result of humanity's stuggles, relationships. If the world knew or thought that it was really about survival, I doubt people would bother caring about anything, and Huxley's imagination would run wild.

empathy is non-existant as we reign terror on others

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by JustinC, posted 10-04-2005 11:06 PM JustinC has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Asgara, posted 10-05-2005 7:06 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 36 by JustinC, posted 10-05-2005 10:43 PM joshua221 has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 316 (249222)
10-05-2005 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by joshua221
10-05-2005 6:47 PM


quote:
Any emotion involved becomes simply "part of the process", and does not retain it's beauty.
I know exactly how a rainbow forms, and can describe the process in terms of light refractions through air borne water droplets. I even have a copy of van der Hulst's seminal book on light scattering and can look up the internal reflections of light in the individual water droplets.
But knowing all of this does not detract from the beauty of rainbows.
In the same way, I know that my capacity for emotion and feelings (and perhaps even my sense of spirituality and my morality) can be explained through the natural selection of my ancient ancestors. But I nonetheless acknowledge my feelings and moral sense and continue to act on them.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by joshua221, posted 10-05-2005 6:47 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by joshua221, posted 10-05-2005 7:02 PM Chiroptera has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 316 (249224)
10-05-2005 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Nuggin
10-04-2005 11:44 PM


Re: So you'd rather lie to yourself...
quote:
First problem - Where in evolution does it say that? How do you know that you aren't carrying "THE" gene? The immunity to the 2014 Avian Flu Pandemic, or whatever. You can have evolved and still be special.
As much as this idea may excite you, I think it sucks.
I would rather have a worthwhile destiny, to a worthwhile end. A worthwhile afterlife.
quote:
Second problem - There are SIX BILLION people on the planet. How special did you think you were in the first place?
A thought like this is demeaning to yourself, knowing that you think this, makes you one in six billion. People that change the world were more than your numbers, the world did not change them. I guess I think of myself differently.

empathy is non-existant as we reign terror on others

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Nuggin, posted 10-04-2005 11:44 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Coragyps, posted 10-05-2005 10:13 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 37 by Nuggin, posted 10-05-2005 10:58 PM joshua221 has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 316 (249225)
10-05-2005 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chiroptera
10-05-2005 6:57 PM


quote:
In the same way, I know that my capacity for emotion and feelings (and perhaps even my sense of spirituality and my morality) can be explained through the natural selection of my ancient ancestors. But I nonetheless acknowledge my feelings and moral sense and continue to act on them.
I couldn't live like that. You make it sound like you aren't unique. Just another organism going with the flow. Come on.

empathy is non-existant as we reign terror on others

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 10-05-2005 6:57 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Chiroptera, posted 10-05-2005 7:20 PM joshua221 has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2293 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 12 of 316 (249227)
10-05-2005 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by joshua221
10-05-2005 6:53 PM


Charlie, may I ask why such a low opinion of humanity? I really only see this in Christianity. It was Xianity that told me I was nothing, evolution shows me that I am very special and unique.
Xianity has brainwashed people into believing that without god they are worthless. People are so scared of being nothing that they will latch onto anything that promises to forgive them for it.
You are basically saying that without god telling you how special you are, you are too stupid to figure it out on your own. You would be a sociopath, not caring about anything without some god telling you to.
It is the same as the argument about morality. Without god telling you not to rape, pillage, and plunder would you be out there doing it all the time?
The more I look at it the more it seems to me that it is XIANITY that robs us of feeling special.
This message has been edited by Asgara, 10-05-2005 06:08 PM

Asgara
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"
select * from USERS where CLUE > 0
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by joshua221, posted 10-05-2005 6:53 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by joshua221, posted 10-05-2005 7:28 PM Asgara has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 316 (249230)
10-05-2005 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by coffee_addict
10-04-2005 11:22 PM


You haven't done a thing, how can you be proud? You have a false feeling of rememberance to an hypothesized idea. I don't see how any of these emotions can be drawn out of a story of death, only the fit survive, not the true in spirit. Relating made-up stories of misery, and destruction ---> extinction of species to a family "rag to riches" story is a poor attempt to get me to see it your way. I don't see beauty in a species being erased, to the struggle to reproduce, there isn't anything there, in this idea, nothing magnificient, yet you seem to believe that you can actually see all of this as a triumph for your people. What about the less developed, the homo habilis', erectus', the neanderthal, are they meaningless too, because if what you believe is true, then I might feel depressed for the thousands who were simply "weaker", and "unfit". But I don't feel depressed, I feel rejuvenated in my beliefs from this log, I feel happy that I don't see it your way. That I don't agree to fall in with the "scientific community, and agree to give up my love for others, my loving relationships to "survival", to "social development", to "social human evolution".
Men's recorded and heavily followed ideas cannot demean God.
quote:
But hey, if you'd rather deny your humble beginning and prefer to believe that all your most valuable possessions (knowledge and education) simply fell from the sky and landed on your head, more power to you! Some of us actually look back and feel proud of the hard work we have done.
There is no "looking back" my friend, you're "looking back" into the mind of a theorist, and the writings of recorded thought. Empathy for these "strugglers" can't exist. Especially if the struggle to present day itself is speculative, and certainly interpretive.
quote:
Just curious, do you also believe that god built the pyramids and other wonders of the world as well? After all, we mere humans couldn't have built such magnificent structures, right?
Obviously you're joking, or trying to belittle me.
This message has been edited by prophex, 10-05-2005 07:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by coffee_addict, posted 10-04-2005 11:22 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by coffee_addict, posted 10-05-2005 9:44 PM joshua221 has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 316 (249231)
10-05-2005 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by joshua221
10-05-2005 7:02 PM


quote:
You make it sound like you aren't unique.
I've tried to respond to this, but I realized that I don't know what you mean by this. What do you mean by "you are/aren't unique", why is this important? How does the theory of evolution destroy this, and why is this bad?

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by joshua221, posted 10-05-2005 7:02 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by joshua221, posted 10-05-2005 7:36 PM Chiroptera has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 316 (249237)
10-05-2005 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Asgara
10-05-2005 7:06 PM


quote:
Charlie, may I ask why such a low opinion of humanity? I really only see this in Christianity. It was Xianity that told me I was nothing, evolution shows me that I am very special and unique.
Evolution shows you that you are a result of lightning bolts striking a young earth.
Christianity shows you that you were specifically created, with love, with reason.
quote:
Xianity has brainwashed people into believing that without god they are worthless.
I don't know where you get this from...
Without God, I am simply lost.
quote:
Without god telling you not to rape, pillage, and plunder would you be out there doing it all the time?
Without me being an emulation, maybe. But God has never had to specifically order me not to attack someone, never had to tell me I was special, my point was that within evolution I have no uniqueness or specialness.
The more I look at it, the more I realize that blind accpetance leads to a pretend passion for imaginary past events.

empathy is non-existant as we reign terror on others

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Asgara, posted 10-05-2005 7:06 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Asgara, posted 10-05-2005 7:35 PM joshua221 has replied

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