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Author Topic:   Evolution and Specialness of Humanity
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 256 of 316 (253074)
10-19-2005 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by robinrohan
10-19-2005 12:34 PM


Re: Brief Summary of my Beliefs, to provide much needed clarity.
Robin writes:
Perhaps a recording of "My Way."
Good idea. Maybe I'll get Ben to play that as the last track he'll hear on his stereo and ask "what's the problem" He sure is forgetting I'm the one with the Colt 45
I fear though for him its going to be "My way or the highway"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by robinrohan, posted 10-19-2005 12:34 PM robinrohan has not replied

Ben!
Member (Idle past 1389 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 257 of 316 (253080)
10-19-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by iano
10-19-2005 1:31 PM


Re: Brief Summary of my Beliefs, to provide much needed clarity.
iano,
I see this thread as prophex's thread, about his issues. I don't see it as a place to discuss general theoretical issues having to do with atheistic morality or problems inherent in relativistic thinking. I'd retract what I was saying if I honestly thought there were problems with such thinking. But I don't see such problems, so we're not going to be able to resolve the issue easily. That's why I'm suggesting taking such levels of debate to another thread.
If you want to simply ask a question, like "how am I defining wisely since I appear to be a relativist?"--that's actually relevant. If you want to hash out the whole relativist paradigm--please take it somewhere else. I'll be happy to hash it out with you there.
Now, I use "wise" in a general sense. Breaking it down comes from analysis, so I'll do my best. In my thinking, the ability to choose your "meaning" wisely consists of:
  • asking questions and getting some idea of other people's thoughts via discussion
  • keeping an open mind
  • having passion in the search
  • having some understanding of the way socieities work
  • having an understanding of cost / benefit analysis

An off-the-cuff list; I reserve the right to make clarifications or additions.
I think prophex has exhibited all these qualities in this thread, to varying degrees. His willingness to discuss his thoughts in a public forum, and his drive to think about things gives me confidence he wouldn't choose a ridiculous, self-destructive "meaning" like robbing people. Whoever chooses such a meaninig is going to be hard pressed to fufill their meaning--unless, as I said, their meaning involves time behind bars.
Again, if you want to go more in depth about relativistic meaning, let's do it somewhere appropriate, like another thread.
Thanks!
Ben
AbE: remove cranky-sounding phrasing. That's carelessness on my part--sorry iano.
This message has been edited by Ben, Wednesday, 2005/10/19 10:50 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 1:31 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 3:57 PM Ben! has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 258 of 316 (253104)
10-19-2005 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Ben!
10-19-2005 1:48 PM


Re: Brief Summary of my Beliefs, to provide much needed clarity.
Ben
I'll make a few last points, aimed primarily at prophex, then bugger off...
Your encouraging someone to be brave and join you and others on self-determined journey. That you don't see problems with it but seem to suggest this is perfectly reasonable and well thought out - as if by saying so means its a given - doesn't change that fact its only your relative view.
You immediately however impose some rules and regs on what constitutes acceptable self-determining, ie: quickly revert to assumed absolute externals with words such as "wisdom" and "ridiculous" and "self-destructive". Like hippies in the 60's, who needed society to function in order to support them while they 'dropped out' from it, this self-determinism attaches itself to the very external moorings it debunks in order to have the luxury to express itself.
Me and my Colt 45, we're not seen as valid. That my illustrative 'self-determinism' is not of the intellectual variety which is the external boundary inside which your rules are shaped indicates that prophex is being invited, not to self-determine, but to join a club. Not self-determinism - but external determinism of different brand. Pseudo self-determinism in other words.
Self-determinism means what is says and all views are validated only by having the person concerned holding them. Self-determinism isn't validated by anothers agreement. And if you don't agree with me then...
Bang! - your dead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Ben!, posted 10-19-2005 1:48 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Ben!, posted 10-19-2005 4:20 PM iano has not replied

Ben!
Member (Idle past 1389 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 259 of 316 (253109)
10-19-2005 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by iano
10-19-2005 3:57 PM


Re: Brief Summary of my Beliefs, to provide much needed clarity.
Hi iano,
Thanks for your reply. I thought you explained your points very clearly and succinctly. I hope I can provide a reply of similar quality.
You immediately however impose some rules and regs on what constitutes acceptable self-determining, ie: quickly revert to assumed absolute externals with words such as "wisdom" and "ridiculous" and "self-destructive".
If you look at my list, everything is based on "informed decision making." I take informed decision-making to be absolute for anything operating rationally. And that was the premise of my proposal--choose for yourself what "meaning" you want.
That is it. The meanings of "wisdom", "ridiculous", and "self-destructive" derive from that simple premise--make informed decisions. If you don't make informed decisions, I think you'll have a harder time finding "meaning". You'll more likely spend time in jail, paying child support, suffering some physical injury, or working at a job that doesn't give you "meaning" but you need in order to make ends meet.
Me and my Colt 45, we're not seen as valid.
I was specifically trying to avoid addressing this issue at all. Yes, you and your Colt 45s are valid. Absolutely. However, given how our society works, unless jail time is part of your "meaning", then your choice of "meaning" is unlikely to lead you to what you want. In that way, it's a "bad decision." If you are choosing what gives you meaning, you shouldn't choose things that you can't accomplish.
And if you don't agree with me then...
Bang! - your dead.
Cute.
But seriously, here's an important point--no matter if you're a relativist or not, there's crime. No matter how you choose your own meaning, there are killers, there are thieves.
The question is only, do you want to be one of them? And if so, why? Is it because of "meaning"? And is it something you really want to choose?
Like I said above, in prophex's case, I don't think becoming a thief is going to be a good choice for "meaning." And it's not a good choice for me either. So I'm not a thief.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 3:57 PM iano has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 260 of 316 (253116)
10-19-2005 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by nator
10-19-2005 8:38 AM


Re: A different approach
As a reply to your 2 short posts, on the subject of "fake" or "real" love. Check out my summariztion, I think it excludes those terms for your sake.
Not according to Charlie.
You only feel "fake" love.
Only people who's love comes from a magical sky daddy feel "real" love.
Not what I said. I said that if evolution was true, it would be a fake love. The love of EVERYONE is real.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by nator, posted 10-19-2005 8:38 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Parasomnium, posted 10-19-2005 5:25 PM joshua221 has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 316 (253117)
10-19-2005 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by nator
10-19-2005 9:50 AM


Re: Shit happens
quote:
It's part of growing up to realize that you aren't the center of the Universe.
Mindsets of this kind I find tragic.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by nator, posted 10-19-2005 9:50 AM nator has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 316 (253120)
10-19-2005 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Annafan
10-19-2005 12:23 PM


Re: Brief Summary of my Beliefs, to provide much needed clarity.
Great post Anna, profound.
quote:
do or don't you believe us when we say that we don't feel about it this way? Do you think we are not sincere or does it mean that we are deluded or that we refuse to see the "real" implications of ToE?
Although I intentionally avoided the judgement of those who accept the ideas of evolution, they do not realize the implications on humanity that those ideas have. It took me some time to get my point across, I believe the quot from Steven Gould really pushed it over the edge for many. Most of the posters didn't care about the hinduist influence, or how science is part of a grand illusion. Aside from Ben mentioning it.
quote:
Either this whole negative approach exists only in your head (and the ones of people who think the same way), or it is a reality and somehow we miss the point. In which case we would act counter to your pessimistic scenario(???)
It doesn't exist, thanks to God. (what you called a negative approach)

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Annafan, posted 10-19-2005 12:23 PM Annafan has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 316 (253122)
10-19-2005 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
10-19-2005 11:17 AM


Re: Brief Summary of my Beliefs, to provide much needed clarity.
quote:
For a possibly different viewpoint, can I ask you to read a Pastoral letter written by Bishop Sims? In it he explains why there is no conflict between your view of humanity as something special and the TOE.
Did he really think it out?
Sure, I'll read it, later though.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 10-19-2005 11:17 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 10-19-2005 5:10 PM joshua221 has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 264 of 316 (253123)
10-19-2005 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by joshua221
10-19-2005 5:09 PM


Re: Brief Summary of my Beliefs, to provide much needed clarity.
Sure he did. Many of us have.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by joshua221, posted 10-19-2005 5:09 PM joshua221 has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 265 of 316 (253124)
10-19-2005 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Ben!
10-19-2005 9:54 AM


Re: Brief Summary of my Beliefs, to provide much needed clarity.
quote:
One makes one's purpose. We choose meaning. It means... you have a lot of work to do. Instead, you're busy trying to deny your responsibility. Take a step out from behind the curtain and see if you can create the meaning for yourself.
Yes, but my purpose is clear, and it has nothing to do with the illusion that attracts many for worldly glory.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Ben!, posted 10-19-2005 9:54 AM Ben! has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Yaro, posted 10-19-2005 7:44 PM joshua221 has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 266 of 316 (253132)
10-19-2005 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by joshua221
10-19-2005 4:57 PM


Re: A different approach
prophex writes:
I said that if evolution was true, it would be a fake love.
Let's suppose that what you say is true. Let's also suppose that evolution is true. Then it follows that the love you feel is fake.
But would you know this? The only love you know is the love you feel. You have no way of comparing it to another kind of love, a "real" love. Besides, your "knowing" love is also fake, as is your "feeling" love.
Now suppose, alternatively, that evolution is not true. Then it follows that the love you feel is real.
Again, would you know this? The only love you know is the love you feel. You have no way of comparing it to another kind of love, a "fake" love.
What I'm saying is that fake and real love feel the same. Either love is fake and what you feel is fake, or love is real and what you feel is real. But you can never know which is which.

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by joshua221, posted 10-19-2005 4:57 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by joshua221, posted 10-19-2005 8:38 PM Parasomnium has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 316 (253145)
10-19-2005 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by joshua221
10-18-2005 10:43 PM


Re: Brief Summary of my Beliefs, to provide much needed clarity.
Being "just another species", all UNIQUENESS, and SIGNIFICANCE, is lost, and humans are as fish swim away from predators in the ocean, humanity is not original in the sense of this difference.
You are correct, but there's lots of things about life that can make you feel the worthlessness of life, not just TOE. One could be completely ignorant of TOE and still think, quite rationally, that life is worthless.
But although I agree with you that life is worthless, I do not agree that this is a good reason to believe or not believe any theory.
One believes something on the grounds of its truth value, not on the grounds of how it makes you feel. I might as well "believe" that I am rich because I don't like being poor. My believing is not going to make my theory of richness true. I'm still going to be poor.
If you really want to believe some theory, such as ID, to be true, then you will find what you want to find because you will be examining it in a biased way.
In a sense, it's ok that life is worthless, and anyway there's nothing you can do about it, so you might as well accept it.
ABE: Remember, Prophex, when two or three come together in the name of Nothing, Nothing will be with them.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 10-19-2005 04:46 PM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 10-19-2005 04:48 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by joshua221, posted 10-18-2005 10:43 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by joshua221, posted 10-19-2005 8:47 PM robinrohan has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6486 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 268 of 316 (253193)
10-19-2005 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by joshua221
10-19-2005 5:11 PM


*BUMP*
Hey prophex, have a look at my post Message 241. Give me a reply if you can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by joshua221, posted 10-19-2005 5:11 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by joshua221, posted 10-19-2005 8:48 PM Yaro has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 316 (253207)
10-19-2005 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Parasomnium
10-19-2005 5:25 PM


Re: A different approach
quote:
But would you know this? The only love you know is the love you feel. You have no way of comparing it to another kind of love, a "real" love. Besides, your "knowing" love is also fake, as is your "feeling" love.
It's not as much the love itself, but the intentions behind the love given.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Parasomnium, posted 10-19-2005 5:25 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Parasomnium, posted 10-20-2005 7:45 AM joshua221 has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 270 of 316 (253210)
10-19-2005 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by robinrohan
10-19-2005 5:45 PM


Re: Brief Summary of my Beliefs, to provide much needed clarity.
Here you go again with the theory of absurdism that you love to pronounce. The thing that people like you and Albert Camus miss, is the beauty and meaningful existence that one can have on earth.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by robinrohan, posted 10-19-2005 5:45 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by nator, posted 10-19-2005 8:53 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 275 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 9:09 AM joshua221 has replied

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