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Author Topic:   Evolution and Specialness of Humanity
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 286 of 316 (253811)
10-21-2005 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by joshua221
10-21-2005 4:56 PM


come on, Charlie.
quote:
Bio textbooks have largely disregarded the social impacts of their written theories, in the way I have tried to explain, best as I could.
Einstein's work in Physics allowed the atom bomb to exist.
Nuclear proliferation is the single biggest threat to the survival of our species, and the of the entire Earth, today.
Therefore, to remain consistent, you must deny the Atomic Theory of Matter due to it's "social implications."
You must deny the existence of neutrons, electrons, and atoms.
You must deny all of Einstein's work because his discoveries "largely disregarded the social impacts of [his] written theories"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by joshua221, posted 10-21-2005 4:56 PM joshua221 has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 287 of 316 (253946)
10-22-2005 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Trump won
10-13-2005 7:15 PM


D.C.C? Quite impressive, CP!
CSP writes:
I am taking a sociology class at Dutchess Community College. Some points relate to this study.
Oh yeah? *goes to google...* Impressive yet basic college. Are you and CP enrolled as A.P> students? Are you taking sociology at DCC? Is it BHS 203. SOCIOLOGY or another one?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Trump won, posted 10-13-2005 7:15 PM Trump won has not replied

ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5152 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 288 of 316 (253948)
10-22-2005 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
10-04-2005 9:42 PM


snowflake
Tyler Durden writes:
Listen up . You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else.
Man is one of the many species at the current tips of the branches of the tree of life, and although we do have abilities that have allowed us to make our mark on this planet like nothing before us, this does not make us special. There are many, many critters out there that can do things we can only dream of. They are not that special.
You have been brought up in the word of God by those that love and surround you: each telling you that God is the truth and that God made us, and because of that we are special. Till you learned to read and write you were dependant on these ideological teachings for your world view. Now you can, and have, moved beyond that protected environment and can read things, and learn things that challenge, fundamentally, the mind set that was given to you. A mind set where you (along with the rest of man) are the special product of an all powerful and all loving God, who created man and set him apart on a pedestal from the rest of creation as his favoured children.
You have admitted that you accept the Theory of Evolution as making sense, of having plenty of solid evidence to back it up and yet you reject it. You reject it simply on the strength that its implication is that YOU are not special through a divine mandate.
We will ignore the fact that you can still invoke a GDI (god did it) for getting the whole thing rolling in the first place (Big Bang or Abiogenesis, take your pick) and also ignore the absurdity at failing to see the wondrousness of being a member of one of the truly amazing solutions to that trickiest of tricky puzzles that is called life, and look at a what I feel could be a closer problem.
You have read lots of things here and, no doubt, elsewhere, and are learning. Learning not just about this subject or that subject but also how to make rational judgements from information gleaned from many diverse and oft contradictory sources. This is a tough lesson indeed and you are fast approaching the toughest one of the lot. That is to say recognising and accepting when a new understanding should replace a long held and cherished one.
Now I am no psychologist or anything of that ilk but please give some thought to the following:
Is there a possibility that, whilst I can understand your argument about wanting to be special, there might be another motivation in not wanting to take the ToE to heart?
Could that motivation be that if you do took the ToE to heart, and all its implications, then most of what you have been taught regarding God, genesis and your place in God’s Holy plan by your Mum, Dad, Family, Friends, Priest and church community could well be wrong? If what they taught you turns out to be wrong, then these people whom you love and trust to lead you and give you good solid information would have (however inadvertently) been lying to you. These kinds of realisation can lead to feelings of Confusion, Anger , Betrayal, Miss-trust, and not least of all Disappointment.
Could it be that your refusal to accept the ToE is the manifestation of a subconscious fear of having that kind of reaction to those you love, and subconscious fear of the social reprisals you might receive?
At one point in my past I learned some things about some friends of mine. This eventually forced me to re-evaluate my friendship with them (and indeed ended it). However I ignored this information (that I had verified as true) for a long time. I didn’t want to feel that kind of anger, resentment and disappointment towards these people whom I had loved and loved being with. Also I didn’t want the anger that I feared, and indeed was directed at me when I finally called them on information I had.
You seem to be confused over all of this and I only mention all this to give you something to think on. I have done many things thinking I understood the reasons why at the time only to realise years later what my true motives had been, and frequently that realisation came as a welcome breath of fresh air.
yous
Ohnhai

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 10-04-2005 9:42 PM joshua221 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 10-22-2005 5:34 AM ohnhai has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 289 of 316 (253950)
10-22-2005 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by ohnhai
10-22-2005 5:08 AM


Re: snowflake
Gosh, Ohnhai...I was gonna respond to you and refute what you had written to Prophex when I realized that you were sincere and that you indeed have introduced a point...an alternative way of approaching the issue. My God is big enough to accept and love you just as surely as He would if you communed In Him. Additionally, I am humble enough (hopefully) to realize that diverse and varied opinions is a healthy environment for education to occur.
Perhaps the "specialness" within us as humans is our ability to allow others to disagree with us without feeling a compelling need to make them see it our way. Perhaps we were made this way whether it be through evolution or whether it be through a Creators impartation.
Ohnhai>>I would like to hear your theory(belief) on how the universe actually began. I realize that this would be a Cosmological question/answer, so perhaps I won't hear you out here. Cheers, at any rate!
This message has been edited by Phat, 10-22-2005 03:35 AM

A youth is a person who is going to carry on what you have started. He will assume control of your cities, states, and nations. He is going to take over your churches, schools, and corporations. You may adopt all the policies you please, but how they are carried out depends on him. So it might be well to pay him some attention.
In the soothing thoughts that spring
Out of human suffering;
In the faith that looks through death, In years that bring the philosophic mind.--- Wordsworth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by ohnhai, posted 10-22-2005 5:08 AM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by ohnhai, posted 10-22-2005 7:17 AM Phat has not replied

ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5152 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 290 of 316 (253959)
10-22-2005 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Phat
10-22-2005 5:34 AM


Re: snowflake
Thank you for your comments.
I was just at a loss to reason in my own head why someone would practically stand up and say I believe in the ToE and then in the next breath totally refute it on the rationalisation that they didn’t like what accepting the thing they refute would mean for their perceived place in the universe.
For years and years (actually my entire life) I have never got in My Mum’s face over anything I felt she was wrong about, or when I saw her tying her self in knots and falling into hate(long story, not telling). My reticence was not because I thought I was wrong, but a fear that she would take it as betrayal and hate me, that as her last emotional rock I could take that support from her, and I feared what would become of her if she felt that I was deserting her too. This however came to a head last year when for my mental health I could not continue. I picked a fight on the most stupid, insignificant of things, and then let rip. It hurt her, but I believe she took a few points on board and realised that I was saying it all out of a really deep respect, concern and love for her. We have been able to talk far more freely since.
I know this is not the same But It, as an explanation, kind of made sense to me. Sort of: “even though I recognise that the ToE seems to make sense, and I don’t refute the evidence, I’m scared God/ Family wont like/love me any more if I admit that’s what I now believe, God wont think I’m special.”
I’m not saying that Prophex does feel this way. It was just a idea in my head to try and rationalise the contradictions.
You are right the Human species does indeed have many special qualities, chiefly among them is the ability to ”think about thinking’, to empathise, rationalise, conceptualise and many, many more. But the ability that has both given us so much benefit and also so much grief is the ability to ask ”Why?’ Remember when your children discovered that this word was the most wonderful word in the world? . . (ok that last bit was aimed generally not specifically)
No matter how we got here, and no matter where we are going we are truly amazing creatures. I am proud (and frequently ashamed) to be a member of the human race.
As to the start of the universe . I haven’t the foggiest . I’m happy to accept the scientific account of what happened back to what ever fraction of a second it is where even quantum physics breaks down into unpredictability. Beyond that it is really a cosmological guessing game and any one who says different . .. well as you said we can agree to differ on that one.
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 22-10-2005 10:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 10-22-2005 5:34 AM Phat has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 291 of 316 (254719)
10-25-2005 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by joshua221
10-21-2005 4:56 PM


bump for prophex Einstein question
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by joshua221, posted 10-21-2005 4:56 PM joshua221 has not replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 292 of 316 (255137)
10-27-2005 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by nator
10-15-2005 2:30 AM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
schraf/mike,
I know this is a bit late.
1) I find it fascinating that you thought that your behavior would change if your belief regarding the supernatural changed, and I wonder if this is a common notion among believers.
I can't speak for everyone, and my deconversion was nowhere near as sudden (rather long and agonizing), but I think in retrospect that the same thing has surprised me - just not so quickly. I definitely had that view, and I think it was common with the believers I knew.
If I'd known I was going to lose my faith, I probably would have offed myself at some point, given the horrible future I imagined thereafter. As it happens, I'm basically the same person now, though I'm working on improving little things here and there. The main difference is that I feel a little more free and less afraid on the good days.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by nator, posted 10-15-2005 2:30 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by joshua221, posted 10-27-2005 7:42 PM zephyr has replied
 Message 295 by mike the wiz, posted 10-27-2005 8:12 PM zephyr has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 316 (255207)
10-27-2005 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by zephyr
10-27-2005 1:49 PM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
quote:
I can't speak for everyone, and my deconversion was nowhere near as sudden (rather long and agonizing), but I think in retrospect that the same thing has surprised me - just not so quickly. I definitely had that view, and I think it was common with the believers I knew.
What do you believe?

The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by zephyr, posted 10-27-2005 1:49 PM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by nwr, posted 10-27-2005 7:56 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 297 by zephyr, posted 10-27-2005 11:32 PM joshua221 has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6407
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 294 of 316 (255210)
10-27-2005 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by joshua221
10-27-2005 7:42 PM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
What do you believe?
Check Message 27, prophex; zephyr pretty much answered your question already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by joshua221, posted 10-27-2005 7:42 PM joshua221 has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4750
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 295 of 316 (255216)
10-27-2005 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by zephyr
10-27-2005 1:49 PM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
If I'd known I was going to lose my faith, I probably would have offed myself at some point, given the horrible future I imagined thereafter.
It's amazing really, what the mind is capable of, and how bleak you can make a Godless scenario.
The main difference is that I feel a little more free and less afraid on the good days.
Less afraid of nihilism, or a universe without God? Or being unprotected by God? (It's okay, if it's private don't answer).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by zephyr, posted 10-27-2005 1:49 PM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by zephyr, posted 10-27-2005 11:29 PM mike the wiz has replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 296 of 316 (255242)
10-27-2005 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by mike the wiz
10-27-2005 8:12 PM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
Mostly the nihilism, I guess, and all the other sensations purported to result from lack of theism. Then I realized my kindness existed before my Christian upbringing nurtured it. Maybe my overactive sense of guilt did too, but I'm skeptical about that one. A little release is nice, as far as that goes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by mike the wiz, posted 10-27-2005 8:12 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2005 9:37 AM zephyr has replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 297 of 316 (255245)
10-27-2005 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by joshua221
10-27-2005 7:42 PM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
I believe in the sun and rain, and usually I'll tell you I believe in love. Human good and human evil come into the picture pretty often as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by joshua221, posted 10-27-2005 7:42 PM joshua221 has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4750
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 298 of 316 (255312)
10-28-2005 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by zephyr
10-27-2005 11:29 PM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
You sound similar to me, which is no bad thing.
But yes, the "consequences of disbelief" are quite false. If pepsi tasted good when you had belief, it does when you disbelieve.
Can you believe I had to learn that from experience?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by zephyr, posted 10-27-2005 11:29 PM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Phat, posted 10-28-2005 10:12 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 301 by zephyr, posted 10-28-2005 10:47 AM mike the wiz has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 299 of 316 (255313)
10-28-2005 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by mike the wiz
10-28-2005 9:37 AM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
But what is the source of your beliefs? Is human wisdom and experience the only and ultimate arbitrator?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2005 9:37 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2005 10:22 AM Phat has replied
 Message 302 by zephyr, posted 10-28-2005 11:12 AM Phat has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4750
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 300 of 316 (255317)
10-28-2005 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Phat
10-28-2005 10:12 AM


Re: Charlie, why won't you answer this question?
Well, human wisdom and experience is all we have to go on isn't it?
What makes you believe, absolutely?
Would you say you know God exists, or that you don't know? I personally think it's unknowable. I made my subjective experiences open to objective unbiased analysis, and they can be refuted. But now I'm not so sure they're worth anything objectively. Like describing chocolate instead of tasting it. Hence if I say I am agnostic, it's that I find God unknowable, yet have chosen to believe again. (although this is still a big change for me, as all religious- adherence is gone, and I admitt my belief, if that's what it's described as, is not really backed up evidence-wise. But that's okay.
Does this answer your recent interest and confusion about my position?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Phat, posted 10-28-2005 10:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 10-28-2005 4:36 PM mike the wiz has not replied

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