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Author Topic:   Best Evidence Macro-Evolution
Taq
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Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
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(4)
Message 88 of 164 (654612)
03-02-2012 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by idscience
03-01-2012 11:14 PM


Re: so can you define macroevolution or not?
Look at the premise of your question. "that is not due to common descent". Common descent is not a fact, it is an inference from a predetermined bias that it did indeed happen.
That is completely false. Common descent is a TESTABLE hypothesis.
For example, we can predict that we should find the same retroviral insertions at the same positions in both the human and chimp genomes. This is a test for common ancestry. So what do we find? When they sequenced the human genome they found about 200,000 retroviral insertions (Human Genome paper). They then sequenced the chimp genome, found the ERV's, and compared them to the human genome (chimp genome paper). What did they find? Out of 200,000 retroviral insertions in the human genome less than 100 are not found in the chimp genome. For the chimp genome, only around 300 are not found in the human genome. There are literally hundreds of thousands of shared ERV's, each one ironclad evidence of common ancestry, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
An unbiased question would be, do I know of any evidence that would tend to contradict a common ancestry.
Absolutely. If we found that vast majority of shared retroviral insertions did not produce the PATTERN of homology that the theory of evolution predicts then that would contradict common ancestry. For example, if we found that only half of the orthologous retroviral insertions shared by humans and orangutans were shared by chimps then this would falsify common ancestry. On the flip side, common design makes absolutely no predictions on the expected PATTERN of shared features. This is why common ancestry is preferred over common design, because it is testable and it passes those tests.
Horizontal Gene Transfer seems like a work around for what was not predicted. It certainly isn't natural selection acting on random mutation and being passed on to descendants.
Wrong on both accounts. HGT is an observed mechanism, not a work around. Also, you can detect HGT separtely from DNA that has been inherited vertically. Secondly, HGT events are random mutations. They are a change in the DNA sequence that is random with respect to fitness. DNA that is transferred horizontally passes through the same filter of natural selection that all changes in DNA go through.
What we have NEVER observed is a supernatural deity changing DNA.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by idscience, posted 03-01-2012 11:14 PM idscience has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 89 of 164 (654613)
03-02-2012 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by idscience
03-02-2012 6:13 AM


Re: so can you define macroevolution or not?
macro evolution has to be able to produce novel morphology.
All that requires is novel DNA sequences which are produced by mutation.
Macro-evolution has to demonstrate how the increase of information occurred.
Macro-evolution does not require an increase in information as it is defined by ID/creationists. It never has.
Macro-E has to demonstrate how a sensory system like this can be built randomly without knowledge of purpose.
Evolution is not a random process, so why would it need to build things randomly?
flagellum motor? How does macro-E build these systems one piece at a time if they are blind to selection until they are built and working?
Why would evolution need to build the flagellum in this fashion? Modification of already existing and functional systems is how evolution would have done it, not in the fashion you are describing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by idscience, posted 03-02-2012 6:13 AM idscience has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 159 of 164 (654997)
03-06-2012 11:40 AM


It's all about the nested hierarchies
RAZD said it best in a previous post:
"The evidence of nested clade hierarchies is evidence against common design.
The evidence of homology distribution between species with convergent evolution (like the bird and bat wing) are evidence against common design."
The evidence for macroevolution is all about the nested hierarchies. Always has been, always will be. Until ID supporters address this topic there really is nothing more to say.
Could an intelligent designer produce a nested hierarchy? Yes. Could an intelligent designer produce an unnested hierarchy? Yes. Could an intelligent designer produce any and all conceivable combinations of features? Yes. Common design is a worthless and unfalsifiable mechanism. It explains nothing. It really is no different than saying that Leprechauns can plant fingerprints at crime scenes, so we should throw out all forensic evidence.
The theory of evolution predicts that we should see a nested hierarchy in species that do not activel participitate in horizontal genetic transfer. What do we observe in metazoans? A nested hierarchy. This is the evidence for macroevoluiton, evidence that ID supporters refuse to deal with.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

  
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