No genetic bottleneck proves no global flood

IIRC I first presented that idea back in 2005 or 2006 and the beauty of it is that it begins by assuming only what the Bible stories say is true and asks, "If true, what must we see?"If someone claims that they shot and hit the target, then we must see a hole in the target. If we look at the target and there is no hole, then the claim that the target was hit is falsified.The test is also independent of when the flood happened; it does not matter if it was yesterday, 4300 years ago or 200,000 years ago.Regardless of when the flood happened the genetic bottleneck would have been at the same time for every surviving species. The population would have been reduced to at best 14 critters of a kind and at worst 4 critters of a kind.But wait, there is more...one possible way around it has been to invoke some super genome, that the pre-flood genome was somehow different and so allowed for greater variation.Well, there are two major problems there.First, even if there was some super genome if the Biblical flood stories were true there would still only be at best 14 copies of it to work with and that is still a bottleneck.Second, we have genetic evidence from humans that date to before the 4300 years ago date, from as far back as 30,000 years ago and as far back as 14,000 years ago in the Americas and there is no sign of any super-genome.I think these two lines of reasoning are pretty solid.Here is the detailed description of the first argument (the genetic bottleneck).

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In the version of the myth found in Genesis 6 God instructs Noah to:

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19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."

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In the version of the myth found in Genesis 7 we see similar (close but not the same) instructions:

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2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.

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We also find similar explanations of what will be destroyed in Genesis 6 it says:

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7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earthmen and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the airfor I am grieved that I have made them."

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and in Genesis 7:

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4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

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In both myths lots of critters get killed, in the myth found in Genesis 6 it seems to be talking about land animals and birds while the myth found in Genesis 7 goes even further and wipes out all living things.

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If we play mix and match and take the best scenario from each of the myths we might be able to claim that only the birds and land animals were wiped out based on the passage from the Genesis 6 story and that we have the larger saved population found in Genesis 7.

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Based on that mix and match game set we have a situation where all land animals and birds found today will be descended from a population that consisted of at most fourteen critters (seven pairs of clean animals and birds) and at worst case four critters (two pair of unclean animals).

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Now that is what I would call a real bottleneck.

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We know we can see bottlenecks in the genetic record; a great example is the one in Cheetahs but we even see them in the human genome and most other species.

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BUT...

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If the flood actually happened we would see a bottleneck in EVERY species of animal living on the land and EVERY bird and EVERY one of the bottlenecks show up in the SAME historical time period.

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Talk about a big RED flag.

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That bottleneck signature would be something every geneticists in the world would see. It would be like a neon sign, Broadway at midnight on New Years Eve. It would be something even a blind geneticist could see.

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So it seems to me to be a very simple test that will support or refute the Flood.

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If that genetic marker is there in EVERY species living on land or bird of the air, then there is support for the flood. It does not prove the flood happened but it would be very strong support.

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If on the other hand that genetic marker is NOT there, then the Flood is refuted.

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And for the second argument see the thread Looking for the Super-Genome. -And it ain't found. Edited by jar, : an ---> and appalin spallin as usualEdited by jar, : fix quote boxes

Well, we have DNA samples analyzed for hominids going back at least 50,000 years now, from several different species and no evidence of any super genome has ever been found. It is also true that genetic evidence from plants, fungi, insects, animals, fish, just about every critter ever sequenced shows no evidence of any super genome.Until someone presents evidence of some super genome I think that idea can be set aside.

This is a great thread for you since it is an example of how to do "What if" speculation. It begins by saying "If the Noahic Flood myths are true what must we see?"You tend to ask just such "What if" questions, but don't take the next step.For example "What if the speed of light were faster or slower?" Well, the answer there is that we would see the evidence of that in radioactive decay halos and in the stars.What if the masses were much less than they are today? Then the Earth would be further from the sun and the moon further from the earth and ...Change leaves evidence and in the case of the Noahic Flood myth, if it did happen as described, then we MUST see the genetic bottleneck signature in EVERY living species of animal, plant, insect and bird.If someone claims to shoot and hit a target, we can look at the target to see if the hole is there.No hole, no score.

Welcome home, pull up a stump and set a spell.You are correct about all living species (including all land plants) except some fish and water plants showing the same bottleneck signature but there is more. If any of the Biblical Flood myths were true that signature must be very recent in all species.

There are other indicators that were seen even before we could do the detailed genetic sampling that is possible today. Consider something as simple as a skin graft. Now with humans, a skin graft will almost always get rejected unless it is from a very closely related individual, often a twin. But in Cheetahs, skin grafts from just about any other cheetah will work on any other cheetah. It was only once we developed a method of examining the genetics that we understood why.

Just a bump to help foreveryoung in his journey.

As you have been shown, that depends on which Biblical flood myth you pick. but in the fable found in Genesis 7 it says: Note what the Bible actually says Faith because this gets important as you try to deal with the bottleneck.In Genesis 7 is clearly says every living thing. That would be animals like man, birds, fish, pigs, rats, pond scum, insects, single cell organisms, plants, trees, seeds, butterflies lions and tigers and bears oh mys ... every living thing.Or is the Bible jess funning us? And I suppose you have evidence of forty days of rain wearing lots of stuff away? Remember that we can observe far more than forty days of rain almost annually in Asia. It is called the "monsoon." So far it has not dissolved even a single mountain.Edited by jar, : fix sub-title