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Author Topic:   How do "novel" features evolve?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2133 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 109 of 314 (659961)
04-19-2012 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by intellen
04-19-2012 10:14 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
If there are ecological challenges, why the dogs for example could not just go to another place to live? Why evolve?
Other niches are already filled with species adapted to them.
For the dogs to move they would have to out-compete other species in areas that those other species are already well-adapted to, and adapt to those other environments at the same time.
Not as easy as it looks.
But this is off topic. You need to address some of the criticisms of your posts. If I may mix metaphors, you're trailing about 99-0 in the 4th quarter and sinking fast.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 10:14 PM intellen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 11:21 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2133 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 116 of 314 (659971)
04-19-2012 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by intellen
04-19-2012 11:21 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
But they move or fight to death, that is we see in the jungle. I mean, nat selec cannot part of evolution. That means, ecological challenges cannot be the caused of the new species, it ToE is right. That is impossible.
Your premise and conclusions are entirely wrong, as has been explained to you by numerous posters.
(Note my signature, below.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 11:21 PM intellen has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2133 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 173 of 314 (660150)
04-21-2012 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by foreveryoung
04-21-2012 12:13 PM


Re: slightly off topic ... but we can redirect
I want to proceed with my argument, but now it is impossible because my opponent refuses to address my argument, and so I look at him with a blank stare.
Your argument is only as good as the evidence supporting it.
Here are some definitions that might help:
Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses. Theories do not grow up to be laws. Theories explain laws.
Theory: A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena. For a hypothesis to rise to the level of theory, it must predict the existence of new phenomena that are subsequently observed. A theory can be overturned if new phenomena are observed that directly contradict the theory. [Source]
When a scientific theory has a long history of being supported by verifiable evidence, it is appropriate to speak about "acceptance" of (not "belief" in) the theory; or we can say that we have "confidence" (not "faith") in the theory. It is the dependence on verifiable data and the capability of testing that distinguish scientific theories from matters of faith.
Hypothesis: a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices."
Speculation: a hypothesis that has been formed by speculating or conjecturing (usually with little hard evidence). When a scientist speculates he is drawing on experience, patterns and somewhat unrelated things that are known or appear to be likely. This becomes a very informed guess.
Data: Individual measurements; facts, figures, pieces of information, statistics, either historical or derived by calculation, experimentation, surveys, etc.; evidence from which conclusions can be inferred.
Science: a method of learning about the world by applying the principles of the scientific method, which includes making empirical observations, proposing hypotheses to explain those observations, and testing those hypotheses in valid and reliable ways; also refers to the organized body of knowledge that results from scientific study.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by foreveryoung, posted 04-21-2012 12:13 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by foreveryoung, posted 04-21-2012 2:03 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2133 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 179 of 314 (660157)
04-21-2012 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by foreveryoung
04-21-2012 2:03 PM


Evidence
What the hell do you fucking want me to do when you ask for evidence to support my argument? I said this outcome is not likely if such and such are true. Why can't anyone fucking tell me why that claim is false?
The only claim I can find in this thread is the following:
Changes in the composition of traits in breeding populations cannot create new structures where none existed before. It cannot change keratin into collagen no matter how many different traits occur in a population. Message 52
You have already been shown by several posters how your claim is incorrect.
If you persist in your claim, even after being shown that it is incorrect, what you need to do is show some evidence that supports it.
This can be done in either of two ways: 1) show where the counter claims made by other posters are incorrect, or 2) provide a model, with supporting evidence, that shows how new structures appeared if they did not do so through evolution.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by foreveryoung, posted 04-21-2012 2:03 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by foreveryoung, posted 04-21-2012 2:49 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2133 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 183 of 314 (660161)
04-21-2012 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by foreveryoung
04-21-2012 2:49 PM


Re: Evidence
See Message 61.
That showed formation of a new structure where it had not previously existed.
That alone falsifies your claim.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by foreveryoung, posted 04-21-2012 2:49 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by foreveryoung, posted 04-21-2012 2:58 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
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