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Author Topic:   Superiority of the 'Protestant Canon'?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 154 (655866)
03-14-2012 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by caffeine
03-14-2012 8:51 AM


Most of the American strict literalists insist on the King James Version. I've heard any number of pastors criticize other translations by comparing them to the KJV.

Some of the reasons for insisting on the KJV are, in my opinion only peripherally associated with accuracy of translation, and in fact, some are probably not rational. I'll refer you to the wikipedia article "King James Only movement" for one take on the controversy.

In many cases, it probably makes little difference to the meaning which tranlsation you use, but there are some passages which can be interpreted quite differently depending on your choice of version.

I've heard pastors deliver sermons that revolve around a specific, and probably meaningless, choice of wording. In some cases, those sermons would not even be "Biblical" according to a different translation of the Bible. And of course to those people who practice that brand of Bible numerology in which they find hidden prophecies by searching for patterns in the letters used in the Bible, a fixed translation of the Bible is essential.

The order of creation only matters to a strict, Bible literalists. Very little of the differences have any effect on Christianity. I imagine that the actual author of the Torah would be very amused at the mess such people have made of his work.

OFF TOPIC
AdminPD

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by caffeine, posted 03-14-2012 8:51 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 52 of 154 (671325)
08-24-2012 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by foreveryoung
08-24-2012 10:08 AM


Re: What is a Canon?
Jude is not referencing the book of Enoch. The book of Enoch was not around when Jude was written.

You could not possibly have made any attempt to verify this before stating it as fact. All of the book of Enoch predates the birth and ministry period of Jesus Christ. Most of the book dates from centuries before Jesus was born. Jude dates from some time after the crucifixion and resurrection.

Jude is referencing a common theme throughout the Old Testament and is more likely referencing Deuteronomy 33:

Could you provide a source for this claim. I don't believe you checked this either. Let's look at the relevant passages from each.

KJV Jude 1:14-15

quote:

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying , Behold , the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed , and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Enoch 1:9

quote:
9. And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of ⌈His⌉ holy ones
To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy ⌈all⌉ the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works ⌈of their ungodliness⌉ which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners ⌈have spoken⌉ against Him.

I'd suggest that Jude was quoting from Enoch and not merely citing a common theme. The other Biblical verses you cite don't contain anything resembling the wording used in Enoch and Jude. I've used your main source below:

Deuteronomy 33:2

quote:
And he said , The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Wow. No resemblance at all.

All the books of the protestant Old Testament DO either make a claim to divine inspiration or a claim to divine authority either explicitly such as "Thus saith the Lord",

Authorship and inspiration are not the same thing. And your evidence of claims of authorship is sorely lacking.

Yes, there are quotes written in the first person, but that's a far cry from saying that God wrote the quotes or the description of events surrounding the quotes. You'll find far more references to God in third person than first person.

implicitly such as the book of Esther when it provides authority for the celebration of the Jewish feast of Purim.

Seriously? This is the type of claim of inspiration that makes you believe that every word of the book of Esther is dictated by God?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by foreveryoung, posted 08-24-2012 10:08 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 154 (671561)
08-27-2012 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Artemis Entreri
08-27-2012 2:06 PM


Re: Jude *quotes* Enoch
semantics much?

the originals who broke with the catholic communion (Lutherans, Anglicans, etc.), the post-catholics are NOT the ones I was referring too.

I'm a bit puzzled, and perhaps it is because I am not parsing your sentence above properly.

You seem to be using the term "Protestant" to refer to a class of worshippers that excludes Lutherans. Such a usage would be ... non-standard, and it should not be too terribly surprising if someone did not pick up on that usage without some help.

OFF TOPIC
AdminPD

Edited by NoNukes, : Bad use of the word "to". I'm glad I didn't do any grammar flames in my post.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-27-2012 2:06 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-27-2012 4:23 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 154 (671593)
08-27-2012 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Artemis Entreri
08-27-2012 4:23 PM


Re: Jude *quotes* Enoch
and explain which protestants I think fit into this category that I and Catholic Scientist where amused by,

Here is your original statement

Protestants never seem to stop amazing me with everything they think they know, compared to the reality of the situation. I eagerly await an answer to yet another "house of cards" scenario like this one.

My point is that your surprise when somebody does not know that Protestant in the statement above does not include Lutherans is misplaced. The above statement looks to me like an inside joke between Catholics.

OFF TOPIC
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-27-2012 4:23 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 154 (673095)
09-13-2012 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by badder2
09-13-2012 5:46 PM


Re: Translating exercise
My guess is that if their ever was an original "version" it bears little resemblance (at least in context) to the english versions of today.

What would be the original version of the Bible? Although individual chapters may be old, the Bible as a collection is not as old as some of those Books. I suspect that some parts of the Bible, for example, the letters attributed to Paul, are likely to be accurate renditions of the originals.

But for other books of the Bible, it may be difficult to define what would constitute an original version. For example, Genesis describes events are alleged to have happened long before anyone wrote them down. Whoever wrote down the version from whom the Book of Genesis descends does not claim to have interviewed any eyewitnesses. So is the original version related to the oral tradition, or to one particular account put into writing?

OFF TOPIC
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by badder2, posted 09-13-2012 5:46 PM badder2 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 09-13-2012 6:46 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 83 of 154 (811846)
06-12-2017 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
06-12-2017 3:15 AM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
Jesus called and commissioned Paul, his writings are no less authoritative than the words of Jesus Himself.

The Bible deifying can find a tough spot here. Paul's testimony is that of a human with human frailty and human subjection to error. His recollection, by his own admission, falters. Yet somehow Paul's writings, with all of their errors are the words of God himself. Well, at least if we let you tell it.

Was Paul given his commission and direction on the road to Damascus, or not until he reached the city? Did the people with him on the road hear Jesus, or did they see the light and hear nothing? Is there one great commandment or two? Is Paul actually your Father in Christ through the Gospel or is there only one Father?

In the past, you have argued that such discrepancies are evidence that the Bible accounts are correct. Yes, real people telling stories get some details wrong. But if we grant that, we have to grant that Paul's testimonies are that of a human being doing his mortal best to understand and follow Jesus. Paul gets so much right, but he is not Jesus and the text reflects that in a number of places.

You and Davidjay may represent the extremes of opinion held by Christians on this topic. Most likely neither of you are correct. If, in fact, there are places were the words of Jesus differ from what Paul says about something important, the resolution should be an easy one for most Christians.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 3:15 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 5:51 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 154 (811865)
06-13-2017 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
06-12-2017 5:51 PM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
They wrote "as moved by the Holy Spirit," every one of them, and Paul as much as any of them.

And yet they do not always agree. I don't have any issue with your answer, but nothing you say even challenges what I posted.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 5:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 06-13-2017 12:39 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 89 of 154 (811872)
06-13-2017 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
06-13-2017 12:39 AM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
I'm not the slightest bit interested in your opinion about these things.

Lol! Why are you posting responses just to tell me that you are not interested in my opinion?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 06-13-2017 12:39 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 06-13-2017 10:27 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 154 (811913)
06-13-2017 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Faith
06-13-2017 10:27 AM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
There are no contradictions between Jesus and Paul.

Sigh. There are even contradictions between Paul and Paul. Yes, I understand that my message from yesterday is too much effort for you to look at again, so let's just go with you being uninterested in my opinion and leave the record as it stands.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 06-13-2017 10:27 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 06-13-2017 4:13 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 149 of 154 (824584)
11-30-2017 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by jar
11-27-2017 9:37 AM


Re: What is a Canon?
The Samaritan Orthodox Canon recognizes only those books that would have been considered canonical at the time Jesus lived.

Beyond that, the question is extremely Christianity centric. The Hebrew Canon includes the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings, which collective match most of, but not all of the Old Testament in the Protestant canon.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by jar, posted 11-27-2017 9:37 AM jar has not yet responded

  
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