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Author Topic:   Labor Pains In Colorado
onifre
Member (Idle past 1142 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 129 of 166 (657052)
03-25-2012 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Jon
03-24-2012 1:16 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
I personally couldn't care less what happens to the middle class. Why should it be any different?

You don't care what happens to other human beings?

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Jon, posted 03-24-2012 1:16 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Jon, posted 03-25-2012 2:23 PM onifre has not yet responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1142 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 130 of 166 (657053)
03-25-2012 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by frako
03-24-2012 5:57 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Way back when when the US was the TOP DOG in just about every industry because every other industry in the world has been reduced to rubble by the Ware things could not have been better. As Things in the world stabilized and the US wasent running a monopoly any more living standards started to decline but none wanted to cut back so allong came the solution just borrow money till you get back on your feet slowly but surly you got yourselves in to so much debt that you could not see out of it and the standard situation got worse and worse. Your countries laws and guidelines about borrowing dint help either and just when moste was pulling the last penny out of their socks to eat the economy crashed and now your complaining why dint the guys in charge do anything to prevent this.

This is uninformed nonsense. Too much wrong with all of that to even begin to go through it. But let me just ask, who is the Top Dog now? And why?

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by frako, posted 03-24-2012 5:57 PM frako has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 12:20 PM onifre has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1142 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 133 of 166 (657059)
03-25-2012 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 12:20 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
This question does not really get at Frako's comment.

Frako's comment was a mess, and I really didn't find anything that he was "getting at" other than misinformation.

There is no single country that is the TOP DOG in every industry.

I was going to circle back to this very point, once I had a response from Frako to see what exactly he was trying to say.

The US has never been Top Dog in ALL industires. So to say that we aren't Top Dog now in many industres is a strawman.

But as an example, the US is clearly not the number 1 source for new television technology. That role has long since been taken over by South Korea, with Japan not far behind.

Thing is, that's what you have to do to have a free market. You need to allow other countries to flourish.

But it's also fair to point out that, at any point, the US can gain control of any market it wanted to given that that was the goal. But in the interest of profit (of course) and a balanced market, it makes no sense to do that.

I find it funny though, Frako is talking from a purely jealous POV. People love to point out that the US is falling apart, or that we are some how poor now, or that industies have fallen apart or that we are in a debt crisis... It's nonsense. And it bothers me to read that because it's utter bullshit.

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 12:20 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 2:10 PM onifre has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1142 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 136 of 166 (657076)
03-25-2012 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 2:10 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Yeah, those markets where we got our butts kicked were probably sour anyways.

Our butt kicked? In what specifically...AND, how did it lose top ranking? Poor product? Low quality product? Or, not being able to keep up with low to extremely low wages in 3rd world countries who's workers are being exploited?

In other words, sure other countries are "beating" us in TV production, for example. But then again those countries aren't winning because of a better ability to create a better product but because of shitty wages paid to workers that make their products cheaper.

It's not fair to say you're making more TV's than the US and thus have kicked the US's ass in it when your workers are below the poverty line and some are starving.

Instead you chose to ask for the name of the new "Top Dog". Were you expecting Frako to brag about his own country?

No, I was looking for an actual answer. I did NOT expect someone from Slovania to brag about anything to me unless their point is to make me laugh hysterically.

Really? And when people in the US say similar things, what is their POV?

A different one.

Whatever motivates Frako to say what he says, he does have a point.

No he doesn't. The US was NEVER Top Dog in ALL industries as he claimed, so the rest is irrelevant.

And again, boasting about 3rd world countries who are exploiting workers as being better at producing products is a tad bit sickening.

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 2:10 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 3:26 PM onifre has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1142 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 140 of 166 (657081)
03-25-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 3:26 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Not being able to competitively manufacture a product because of not being able to pay tiny wages would constitute a butt kicking if the goal is participating in the market for that product.

And thus my point in the statement you quoted. We could, at any point, top any country. We lack zero resources. There is nothing stopping us, except one thing, there is a value placed on the American worker.

I don't see the part of your post that disputes my point.

Funny, that seems to be everyone's opinion here.

I don't care what our excuses are for being in that position.

Sure you do, it's the same reason YOU get paid a decent wage and work a reasonable amount of hours. It's the same reason our 8 year olds don't have to work in a sweat shop or lose a hand in a manufacturing plant. I wouldnt call that an "excuse."

Nobody in the US is capable of making a competitive large screen LCD or small smartphone display.

We absolutely could, and DO have all the necessary tools for it. What we don't have is children ages 8-12 willing to lose an arm for it.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 3:26 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 4:53 PM onifre has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1142 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 145 of 166 (657091)
03-25-2012 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 4:53 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Didn't mean to make it specific to LCD manufacturing in Korea.

However, while there may not be children in the LCD plant specifically, there ARE children in other plants in Korea. Also, the adults are ridiculously over worked and extremely under paid. Further more, how do the workers even get to work?

For more: The World's Hardest-Working Countries

quote:
If you thought you worked long hours, consider 39-year-old Lee from South Korea. A civil servant at the ministry of agriculture and fisheries, Lee gets up at 5:30 a.m. every day, gets dressed and makes a two-hour commute into Seoul to start work at 8:30 a.m. After sitting at a computer for most of the day, Lee typically gets out the door at 9 p.m., or even later.

By the time he gets home, it's just a matter of jumping in the shower and collapsing into bed, before starting the whole routine all over again, about four hours later. This happens six days a week, and throughout almost all of the year, as Lee gets just three days of vacation.

That's right. Three days.


Point is: we DO have the means to make anything and be on top, and that was my point. But we don't work our workers to death, under terrible conditions. And even under normal conditions, the wages are fair, the hours are fair and the vacation time is fair.

quote:

Of course in the US, any attempt to pay similar wages will simply result in attorneys and engineers finding other places to work.


Which, having friends who are both engineers and lawyers, the money they get here isn't ALL that much either. So less is clearly unacceptable for someone who has a degree in either profession.

So, it's again nothing to say that you're on top when everyone bellow you is suffering. And boasting such success is a cheap victory.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 4:53 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 6:51 PM onifre has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1142 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 147 of 166 (657094)
03-25-2012 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 6:51 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Well, that does happen to be the example we were discussing.

No, you said LCD's AND smartphones. When I gave you my reply you focused only on LCD's. I guess because you know full well that phones DO employ child labor.

I take it that your argument does not apply to the LCD manufacturing industry.

And I take it your argument does not apply to smartphones?

What I find hilarious is the that as a patent attorney in DC, I found it necessary to embark on a 1.5 hour (round trip) commute to DC and to work 10-12 hours a day.

Again you focus on just one portion of it. What about vacation time? Wages? I'm sure you could have afforded a car? Or maybe you were in your air conditioned car? How nice were your lunches? How nice was your office? Etc...

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 6:51 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 7:37 PM onifre has acknowledged this reply
 Message 149 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 7:46 PM onifre has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1142 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 150 of 166 (657101)
03-25-2012 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 7:46 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
I don't even know what we're debating anymore.

My point was that the US can be on top of any industry but, worker conditions prevent us from doing so and NOT that we are just not that good anymore.

Also, the US was never leading in ALL industries so that original point is moot.

Anything else we have been discussing has completely side-tracked that.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 7:46 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 8:05 PM onifre has acknowledged this reply

  
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