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Author Topic:   Labor Pains In Colorado
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 166 (657102)
03-25-2012 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by onifre
03-25-2012 7:56 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
I don't even know what we're debating anymore.
My point was that the US can be on top of any industry but, worker conditions prevent us from doing so and NOT that we are just not that good anymore.

I'm not suggesting that Koreans are more capable than Americans. I agree that the US cannot compete because they are unwilling to work and be compensated more like Koreans.

But beyond that, I'm suggesting that a Korean LCD worker's lot in life isn't unreasonable despite the fact that Americans don't like it. It isn't child labor.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 7:56 PM onifre has acknowledged this reply

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 152 of 166 (657354)
03-27-2012 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Perdition
03-20-2012 2:22 PM


Why not?

I just don't think it is. more like a baby and a babysmomma

Assuming you can't work due to a disability. What if there just aren't any jobs in your area? What if the only jobs that will hire you will pay you less than it would cost to put your child in daycare?

great questions and more reasons why this simple data is far off. I got by when i was on minimum wage.

But even if they are, you're willing to punish the children because their parents are "retarded" or "irresponsible"?

aint my kids. i aint punishing them. their parents should have considered the consequences of their actions before punishing their own kids.

But not free. If all your money pays rent and utilities, there's no such thing as "affordable" clothing.

LOL please. you are just making shit up. you can afford it.

but what if but what if but what if.....

I have no idea what this is

sry im originally a FIB and thats what it is called one state to the south of you: http://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?item=30371

Yeah, I see you making a lot of them in this post alone.

ditto

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Perdition, posted 03-20-2012 2:22 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Perdition, posted 03-27-2012 5:07 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Perdition
Member (Idle past 1520 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 153 of 166 (657357)
03-27-2012 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Artemis Entreri
03-27-2012 4:46 PM


I just don't think it is. more like a baby and a babysmomma

So a baby and mother aren't a family. What about a baby and a single father?

You have some strange ideas about what a family is.

I got by when i was on minimum wage.

Good for you. How many children did you have to raise? Was it easy?

aint my kids. i aint punishing them. their parents should have considered the consequences of their actions before punishing their own kids.

And this is what it comes down to. "It ain't my problem." Which flies in the face of all of the facts. For one thing, we live in a society, which implies that people will sacrifice for the others in the society.

But beyond that, people who are poor tend to be less educated. People who are poor and less educated tend to turn to crime to help themselves make ends meet. Crime can affect you directly, or indirectly in that it costs you money through taxes and insurance.

Also, children that can afford to have essentials, including a good education, tend to become more productive members of society, advancing our economy, including the social security you'll probably need when you're old.

So, it affects you and all of us, even if you can't quite dredge up the compassion for other human beings.

LOL please. you are just making shit up. you can afford it.

You're right. I can. I'm not making minimum wage.

I know people who have had to choose between food and clothing. So no, I'm not making it up.

sry im originally a FIB and thats what it is called one state to the south of you

Ahh, food stamps. There's also WIC available for women with children who are below the poverty line. These are great programs, but they're not enough.

ditto

Every example I've used is one that I've either witnessed first hand, or are obvious outcomes of the current set-up. All you've done is hand wave them away and claim that there's no one who can't afford to buy clothes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Artemis Entreri, posted 03-27-2012 4:46 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-03-2012 12:39 PM Perdition has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 154 of 166 (658233)
04-03-2012 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Perdition
03-27-2012 5:07 PM


Good for you. How many children did you have to raise? Was it easy?

no kids cause i aint retarded.
was what easy, the job, no it was hard work.

And this is what it comes down to. "It ain't my problem." Which flies in the face of all of the facts. For one thing, we live in a society, which implies that people will sacrifice for the others in the society.

please keep your socialism and your socialist ideas in Wisconsin.

So, it affects you and all of us, even if you can't quite dredge up the compassion for other human beings.

awwwww.......I almost shed a tear for your bleeding heart, to bad I dont have one

as I am a

and we are heartless.

Every example I've used is one that I've either witnessed first hand, or are obvious outcomes of the current set-up. All you've done is hand wave them away and claim that there's no one who can't afford to buy clothes.

WARNING strawman alert


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Perdition, posted 03-27-2012 5:07 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:48 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Perdition
Member (Idle past 1520 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 155 of 166 (658240)
04-03-2012 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Artemis Entreri
04-03-2012 12:39 PM


no kids cause i aint retarded.

Good.

please keep your socialism and your socialist ideas in Wisconsin.

You'll forgive me if I don't. And if you don't, I don't really care.

I am a [libertarian] and we are heartless.

Well, I actually consider myself a liberal libertarian, too. I think people should be free to do as they wish, so long as they don't hurt others by doing it. I probably just have a different definition of hurt than you would.

WARNING strawman alert

I don't see a strawman. You said all of my examples were false and made up. I said they weren't because I've seen them actually occur. That's what we call "evidence."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-03-2012 12:39 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-03-2012 12:55 PM Perdition has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 156 of 166 (658241)
04-03-2012 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Perdition
04-03-2012 12:48 PM


You'll forgive me if I don't. And if you don't, I don't really care.

No I really won't, Socialists are the reason this country is becoming a pile of shit.

I don't see a strawman. You said all of my examples were false and made up. I said they weren't because I've seen them actually occur. That's what we call "evidence."

I am not going to get into semantics like you want to. I said you were making up what ifs. it wasn't until i called you out that you said they came from experience (something that is not quantifiable, though you can call it "evidence" if it makes you feel better.).

Well, I actually consider myself a liberal libertarian, too. I think people should be free to do as they wish, so long as they don't hurt others by doing it. I probably just have a different definition of hurt than you would.

yeah i'm not forcing people who have kids to work minimum wage, nor am i asking people on minimum wage to have kids, just as "they" shouldn't force (hurt) me to pay for their ineptitude, and lack of thinking or responsibility.

I mean them no harm when I say FUCK them.

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:48 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 1:07 PM Artemis Entreri has responded
 Message 158 by Taq, posted 04-04-2012 11:42 AM Artemis Entreri has responded

Perdition
Member (Idle past 1520 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 157 of 166 (658248)
04-03-2012 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Artemis Entreri
04-03-2012 12:55 PM


No I really won't, Socialists are the reason this country is becoming a pile of shit.

Any evidence for this? I'd say its the greedy, me-first types (cough cough) who have made this country as shitty as its become.

But since we live in a free country, and I have freedom fo speech, I can advocate for what I believe will make this country better just as much as you do.

yeah i'm not forcing people who have kids to work minimum wage, nor am i asking people on minimum wage to have kids, just as "they" shouldn't force (hurt) me to pay for their ineptitude, and lack of thinking or responsibility.

You know, you pay more for them now than you would if the minimum wage were raised. Right now, your taxes pay for welfare, food stamps, WIC, etc. If the minimum wage were enough that fewer people needed those programs, your taxes could be lowered.

And you seem to be stuck on assuming the order of things. People can have kids, then lose their good paying jobs and be forced to work at minimum wage.

The only way your argument makes any sense is if you argue that no one should have kids.

I mean them no harm when I say FUCK them.

And I mean you no harm when I say FUCK YOU.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-03-2012 12:55 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-04-2012 3:00 PM Perdition has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8081
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 158 of 166 (658359)
04-04-2012 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Artemis Entreri
04-03-2012 12:55 PM


No I really won't, Socialists are the reason this country is becoming a pile of shit.

Yeah, those free socialist roads we drive on and those free socialist elementary schools are the scurge of society. Don't even get me started on those socialist police and fire departments. Our country would be so much better if we had a 75% literacy rate where only 80% of people could afford to use transportation while houses burn down because the privately owned fire department did not received their payment from those addresses.

yeah i'm not forcing people who have kids to work minimum wage, nor am i asking people on minimum wage to have kids, just as "they" shouldn't force (hurt) me to pay for their ineptitude, and lack of thinking or responsibility.

A days work should earn a livable wage. This is what should happen in a moral society.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-03-2012 12:55 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-04-2012 3:05 PM Taq has responded

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 159 of 166 (658392)
04-04-2012 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Perdition
04-03-2012 1:07 PM


But since we live in a free country, and I have freedom fo speech, I can advocate for what I believe will make this country better just as much as you do.

no argument there, just as I'm free to call it out.

You know, you pay more for them now than you would if the minimum wage were raised. Right now, your taxes pay for welfare, food stamps, WIC, etc. If the minimum wage were enough that fewer people needed those programs, your taxes could be lowered.

And you seem to be stuck on assuming the order of things. People can have kids, then lose their good paying jobs and be forced to work at minimum wage.

The only way your argument makes any sense is if you argue that no one should have kids.

I enjoy the double standards of your..."altruism". lol

And I mean you no harm when I say FUCK YOU.

I don't take any from it we should say fuck you more often around here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 1:07 PM Perdition has not yet responded

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 160 of 166 (658395)
04-04-2012 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Taq
04-04-2012 11:42 AM


Yeah, those free socialist roads we drive on and those free socialist elementary schools are the scurge of society.

I went to private school and I live on a private road that I maintain.

any more brain busters?

Don't even get me started on those socialist police and fire departments. Our country would be so much better if we had a 75% literacy rate where only 80% of people could afford to use transportation while houses burn down because the privately owned fire department did not received their payment from those addresses.

fuck the police, I have lived in an unincorporated area for most of my life (one with no fire department),

do you know how many times my house caught fire? (zero)

what if what if what if. is this perdition's 2nd account?

what does literacy have to do with any of this?

A days work should earn a livable wage. This is what should happen in a moral society.

it does


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Taq, posted 04-04-2012 11:42 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Taq, posted 04-04-2012 3:18 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Taq
Member
Posts: 8081
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 161 of 166 (658404)
04-04-2012 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Artemis Entreri
04-04-2012 3:05 PM


I went to private school and I live on a private road that I maintain.

Do you drive everywhere on private roads, and do you only do business with people who went to private schools?

fuck the police, I have lived in an unincorporated area for most of my life (one with no fire department),

do you know how many times my house caught fire? (zero)

what if what if what if. is this perdition's 2nd account?

what does literacy have to do with any of this?

Do you seriously think society would be better without police and fire departments? Do you think we would be better of with a 75% literacy rate?

it does

That is not what the data is showing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-04-2012 3:05 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-04-2012 3:32 PM Taq has responded

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 162 of 166 (658407)
04-04-2012 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Taq
04-04-2012 3:18 PM


Do you drive everywhere on private roads,

no but private roads is a possibility, I commute to work on one almost everyday. (Dulles Greenway).

and do you only do business with people who went to private schools?

I don't know, I don't ask people where they went to school.

Do you seriously think society would be better without police and fire departments?

without police? definitely. without fire departments, I am unsure i have almost zero relations or experience with them except when I see them begging for money at stoplights.

Do you think we would be better of with a 75% literacy rate?

why do you refuse to answer my question on how literacy has anything to do with this?

That is not what the data is showing.

depends what you are looking at. if its the simple graph at the beginning of this, then you are making a lot of assumptions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Taq, posted 04-04-2012 3:18 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Taq, posted 04-05-2012 11:33 AM Artemis Entreri has responded

Taq
Member
Posts: 8081
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 163 of 166 (658481)
04-05-2012 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Artemis Entreri
04-04-2012 3:32 PM


no but private roads is a possibility, I commute to work on one almost everyday. (Dulles Greenway).

The freeway system was a huge boon to this country. It opened up free transportation allowing for cheap transport of goods across the country on reliable roads. We wouldn't be where we are right now without it. Socialist roads are a big plus.

I don't know, I don't ask people where they went to school.

Surely you are aware that the vast majority of people went to socialist schools, yes?

without police? definitely.

So you would have no problem with murders going unsolved and uninvestigated? Are you so shortsighted that you see no positive effect of law enforcement?

without fire departments, I am unsure i have almost zero relations or experience with them except when I see them begging for money at stoplights.

Then you are very lucky. A house I was living in developed a short in one of the attic fans which started a fire in the attic. Without the fire department I really doubt I could have opened up the roof and put out the fire before it engulfed the entire house.

why do you refuse to answer my question on how literacy has anything to do with this?

In my estimation, that would be the literacy rate if socialist schools went away. Between the civil war and the beginning of the public school system the literacy rate was very low amongst minorities. The public school system was founded on the idea that education should be available to all in a democracy. I guess you are against this socialist principle.

depends what you are looking at. if its the simple graph at the beginning of this, then you are making a lot of assumptions.

So says the person who assumes that the current minimum wage is a livable wage.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-04-2012 3:32 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-06-2012 1:26 PM Taq has not yet responded

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 164 of 166 (658577)
04-06-2012 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Taq
04-05-2012 11:33 AM


The freeway system was a huge boon to this country. It opened up free transportation allowing for cheap transport of goods across the country on reliable roads. We wouldn't be where we are right now without it. Socialist roads are a big plus.

Are you suggesting there wasn't free transportation before the freeway?

yeah and real great for the environment too

The freeway system was a huge boon to this country. It opened up free transportation allowing for cheap transport of goods across the country on reliable roads. We wouldn't be where we are right now without it. Socialist roads are a big plus.

depends are where you are.

So you would have no problem with murders going unsolved and uninvestigated? Are you so shortsighted that you see no positive effect of law enforcement?

As if the police only existed for the purpose of investigating murders? Are you so brainwashed that you see the positive effect of law enforcement?

Then you are very lucky. A house I was living in developed a short in one of the attic fans which started a fire in the attic. Without the fire department I really doubt I could have opened up the roof and put out the fire before it engulfed the entire house.

so who put out the fire you are the FD? that was confusing. it sounds like you put out the fire, but need the FD to open the roof!?!

huh?

In my estimation, that would be the literacy rate if socialist schools went away. Between the civil war and the beginning of the public school system the literacy rate was very low amongst minorities. The public school system was founded on the idea that education should be available to all in a democracy. I guess you are against this socialist principle.

what are you talking about? public schools have been around since before the civil war.
There is a difference between available education and forced education.
I think you assume too much.

So says the person who assumes that the current minimum wage is a livable wage.

once again depends on where you live.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Taq, posted 04-05-2012 11:33 AM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Jon, posted 04-06-2012 7:19 PM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 166 (658596)
04-06-2012 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Artemis Entreri
04-06-2012 1:26 PM


There is a difference between available education and forced education.

Don't be ridiculous.

Education must always be forced because the benefits of educating are delayed while the benefits of not educating are immediate.

Are you suggesting there wasn't free transportation before the freeway?

Free transportation = transportation less hindered.

The freeway system makes shipping-based economic activity (i.e., all economic activity) easier and less expensive.

And the freeway isn't the only socialist road system. Almost every road in the country is a socialist road. When was the last time you and your buddies put some cash together to build a road?

Didn't think so!


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-06-2012 1:26 PM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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