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Author Topic:   Labor Pains In Colorado
Taq
Member
Posts: 7935
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 121 of 166 (656941)
03-23-2012 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Jon
03-22-2012 7:49 PM


Re: Assumptions a plenty inbound
Many poor people get their tax liability reduced to $0.

Perhaps their income tax, but there are plenty of taxes that they still pay. If they have a job then they get 10% or so taken off of the top of their pay just by Social Security and Medicare taxes. If they live in a state with sales tax and gas tax then they pay those as well. They may also be paying for vehicle registration. If they are renting part of that rent is used by the owner of the property to pay property tax (if that state has that tax). We can also tack on "sin" taxes on alcohol and tobacco.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Jon, posted 03-22-2012 7:49 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Jon, posted 03-23-2012 12:27 PM Taq has not yet responded

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 166 (656942)
03-23-2012 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Taq
03-23-2012 11:54 AM


Re: Assumptions a plenty inbound
Perhaps their income tax, but there are plenty of taxes that they still pay. If they have a job then they get 10% or so taken off of the top of their pay just by Social Security and Medicare taxes. If they live in a state with sales tax and gas tax then they pay those as well. They may also be paying for vehicle registration. If they are renting part of that rent is used by the owner of the property to pay property tax (if that state has that tax). We can also tack on "sin" taxes on alcohol and tobacco.

See Message 120:

quote:
Jon in Message 120:

And that isn't at all what I was talking about. What I was talking about is that tax refunds already represent a system by which the government cuts checks to people on a yearly basis.


Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Taq, posted 03-23-2012 11:54 AM Taq has not yet responded

Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12445
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 123 of 166 (656986)
03-24-2012 10:32 AM


Topic: Saving Labor Unions
What all of this side chatter has to do with my original topic is unclear. My basic point is that labor unions help keep some of us longtime workers in the lower echelon of the middle class rather than struggling our entire lives in entry level minimum wage jobs that few people...teenagers included...want to work at. My point is that we voters need to save these union rights, for it keeps Americas middle class from falling as a victim to global competition.
Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Jon, posted 03-24-2012 1:16 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 166 (656996)
03-24-2012 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Thugpreacha
03-24-2012 10:32 AM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
What all of this side chatter has to do with my original topic is unclear.

You introduced the topic of minimum wage:

quote:
Phat in Message 1:

Republicans crow about creating jobs, but what good are minimum wage jobs in todays economic dynamic?


My point is that we voters need to save these union rights, for it keeps Americas middle class from falling as a victim to global competition.

Why should anyone, especially the rich and the poor, care one lick about 'Americas middle class'?

I personally couldn't care less what happens to the middle class. Why should it be any different?

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-24-2012 10:32 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-24-2012 4:45 PM Jon has responded
 Message 129 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 11:43 AM Jon has responded

Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12445
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 125 of 166 (657019)
03-24-2012 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Jon
03-24-2012 1:16 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Jon, pouring gasoline on a fire writes:

Why should anyone, especially the rich and the poor, care one lick about 'Americas middle class'?

I personally couldn't care less what happens to the middle class.

First of all, just about all of us at EvC are in this middle class you so eagerly trash. You may be the only one who self classifies himself as poor. (Yet your ambition, economically, would take you also to the middle class.)

Who is the Middle Class?

Wikipedia writes:

The middle class is any class of people in the middle of a societal hierarchy. In Weberian socio-economic terms, the middle class is the broad group of people in contemporary society who fall socio-economically between the working class and upper class.

The common measures of what constitutes middle class vary significantly between cultures. In urban India, for example, a family is considered middle class if it resides in an owner-occupied property. In the United States and Canada many families where the primary income-earner is employed in a white collar job are considered part of the middle class. Moreover, most North Americans would take issue with a definition of middle-class which excluded the working class, i.e. 'classic Weberian'. (Hard work is generally held in high honour, fairness and equality are common law, and the North American economy was built upon traditionally labour intensive industries.)

Wikipedia writes:

In February 2009, The Economist announced that over half the world's population now belongs to the middle class, as a result of rapid growth in emerging countries. It characterized the middle class as having a reasonable amount of discretionary income, so that they do not live from hand to mouth as the poor do, and defined it as beginning at the point where people have roughly a third of their income left for discretionary spending after paying for basic food and shelter. This allows people to buy consumer goods, improve their health care, and provide for their children's education.

Thus, you would be middle class, Jon. You most certainly are not a street urchin. This group of people are what drives the economy. They are not too poor to spend 1/3 of their income as discretionary.

Edited by Phat, : added link


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Jon, posted 03-24-2012 1:16 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Jon, posted 03-24-2012 4:50 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 166 (657020)
03-24-2012 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Thugpreacha
03-24-2012 4:45 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Thus, you would be middle class, Jon.

Because you know how much of my money I have left over after 'paying for basic food and shelter'?

This group of people are what drives the economy.

Whatever driving they are doing, it is clearly not helping people living in debt because they do not even earn enough to live paycheck-to-paycheck, or the people living on the street because they do not have the ability to live in debt.

So why should these people give a rat's ass about the middle class?

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-24-2012 4:45 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-24-2012 4:57 PM Jon has not yet responded
 Message 128 by frako, posted 03-24-2012 5:57 PM Jon has not yet responded
 Message 132 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 12:35 PM Jon has responded

Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12445
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 127 of 166 (657021)
03-24-2012 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Jon
03-24-2012 4:50 PM


Class Warfare
Basically, what you have done is highlight a large part of the problem. The poor are fighting the middle class. We in essence are fighting ourselves, rather than fighting the rich. It is the rich who own or control 80+% of every asset. For a revolution that tears down the very structure of what people aspire to become economically, pitting people against people in a competitive dog eat dog matrix, chaos can only result.

I too would be bitter at the middle class if they came along and tossed me out of their ranks...forcing me to a street corner where I may just pick up a gun and start shooting them!!

And in case you wonder why I would do such a thing? Because my family worked hard to get where we are....clinging to some respectability. We dont do poor well. I can but taste a bit of what causes the revolutions overseas. People are tired of being given no respect for the hard work they have done their whole lives.

Edited by Phat, : added features

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Jon, posted 03-24-2012 4:50 PM Jon has not yet responded

frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 128 of 166 (657024)
03-24-2012 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Jon
03-24-2012 4:50 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Whatever driving they are doing, it is clearly not helping people living in debt because they do not even earn enough to live paycheck-to-paycheck, or the people living on the street because they do not have the ability to live in debt.

The problem is the people screwed themselves in the ass big time.

Way back when when the US was the TOP DOG in just about every industry because every other industry in the world has been reduced to rubble by the Ware things could not have been better. As Things in the world stabilized and the US wasent running a monopoly any more living standards started to decline but none wanted to cut back so allong came the solution just borrow money till you get back on your feet slowly but surly you got yourselves in to so much debt that you could not see out of it and the standard situation got worse and worse. Your countries laws and guidelines about borrowing dint help either and just when moste was pulling the last penny out of their socks to eat the economy crashed and now your complaining why dint the guys in charge do anything to prevent this.

Thing is noone was thinking because you all wanted to live the good life the rich the middle class and the rest.

Every sane country has laws and guidelines to prevent stupid people to fall in such debt.

some examples from my country.

You cant get a lone if if your paying back your previous lones already exceed 33% of your monthly salary.

Max intrest rate is 200% or dubble the average intrest rate witch is reported by the national bank.

And other similar laws i think one is that you dont have to pay more then double of that what you borrowed.

But you got screwed by everybody who lent you money your credit cards had intrest rates above 30%

And untill you fix this stupid people will still get in to so much debt that it will be impossible for them to pay it back.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

Click if you dare!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Jon, posted 03-24-2012 4:50 PM Jon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 11:49 AM frako has not yet responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1124 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 129 of 166 (657052)
03-25-2012 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Jon
03-24-2012 1:16 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
I personally couldn't care less what happens to the middle class. Why should it be any different?

You don't care what happens to other human beings?

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Jon, posted 03-24-2012 1:16 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Jon, posted 03-25-2012 2:23 PM onifre has not yet responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1124 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 130 of 166 (657053)
03-25-2012 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by frako
03-24-2012 5:57 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Way back when when the US was the TOP DOG in just about every industry because every other industry in the world has been reduced to rubble by the Ware things could not have been better. As Things in the world stabilized and the US wasent running a monopoly any more living standards started to decline but none wanted to cut back so allong came the solution just borrow money till you get back on your feet slowly but surly you got yourselves in to so much debt that you could not see out of it and the standard situation got worse and worse. Your countries laws and guidelines about borrowing dint help either and just when moste was pulling the last penny out of their socks to eat the economy crashed and now your complaining why dint the guys in charge do anything to prevent this.

This is uninformed nonsense. Too much wrong with all of that to even begin to go through it. But let me just ask, who is the Top Dog now? And why?

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by frako, posted 03-24-2012 5:57 PM frako has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 12:20 PM onifre has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 166 (657057)
03-25-2012 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by onifre
03-25-2012 11:49 AM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
But let me just ask, who is the Top Dog now? And why?

This question does not really get at Frako's comment. There is no single country that is the TOP DOG in every industry. But as an example, the US is clearly not the number 1 source for new television technology. That role has long since been taken over by South Korea, with Japan not far behind.

I'm not saying that Frako's history is correct, but is there any question that the US is not the Top Dog in many industries in which it was the top manufacturer shortly after World War II? Is this even a question worth arguing about?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 11:49 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 12:39 PM NoNukes has responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 132 of 166 (657058)
03-25-2012 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Jon
03-24-2012 4:50 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Whatever driving they are doing, it is clearly not helping people living in debt because they do not even earn enough to live paycheck-to-paycheck, or the people living on the street because they do not have the ability to live in debt

So why should these people give a rat's ass about the middle class?

The middle class includes people who are currently able to live beyond paycheck-to-paycheck, but who, given fairly minor changes in circumstances might well find themselves living on the street. It is certainly the case that people in the middle class have descendants and relatives that are at risk of being out on the street.

People on the street give a rat's ass about what happens to people just above them because they aspire to join their ranks at some point and because many of them are from middle class backgrounds. And if by grace, you are living in your mom's basement, surely you care about what happens to mom.

I must be missing your real point, because the attitude reflected in your post as I read it seems incredibly short sighted and crass.
I suggest that you actually get out an actually rub some elbows with the homeless in your area and find out how they really feel before spouting off academic nonsense.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Jon, posted 03-24-2012 4:50 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Jon, posted 03-25-2012 3:13 PM NoNukes has responded

onifre
Member (Idle past 1124 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 133 of 166 (657059)
03-25-2012 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by NoNukes
03-25-2012 12:20 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
This question does not really get at Frako's comment.

Frako's comment was a mess, and I really didn't find anything that he was "getting at" other than misinformation.

There is no single country that is the TOP DOG in every industry.

I was going to circle back to this very point, once I had a response from Frako to see what exactly he was trying to say.

The US has never been Top Dog in ALL industires. So to say that we aren't Top Dog now in many industres is a strawman.

But as an example, the US is clearly not the number 1 source for new television technology. That role has long since been taken over by South Korea, with Japan not far behind.

Thing is, that's what you have to do to have a free market. You need to allow other countries to flourish.

But it's also fair to point out that, at any point, the US can gain control of any market it wanted to given that that was the goal. But in the interest of profit (of course) and a balanced market, it makes no sense to do that.

I find it funny though, Frako is talking from a purely jealous POV. People love to point out that the US is falling apart, or that we are some how poor now, or that industies have fallen apart or that we are in a debt crisis... It's nonsense. And it bothers me to read that because it's utter bullshit.

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 12:20 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2012 2:10 PM onifre has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 166 (657067)
03-25-2012 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by onifre
03-25-2012 12:39 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
But it's also fair to point out that, at any point, the US can gain control of any market it wanted to given that that was the goal.

I don't know of any reason to believe that other than pure nationalistic pride. Yeah, those markets where we got our butts kicked were probably sour anyways.

The US has never been Top Dog in ALL industires

Yes, that was a gross overstatement. Yet you did not choose to address Frako's point by addressing what was fairly clearly hyperbole. Instead you chose to ask for the name of the new "Top Dog". Were you expecting Frako to brag about his own country?

It is certainly the case that the US is not the manufacturing power house that it was shortly after WWII when large segments of the Japanese and European economies were destroyed, and China was a closed off mess.

I find it funny though, Frako is talking from a purely jealous POV.

Really? And when people in the US say similar things, what is their POV? Whatever motivates Frako to say what he says, he does have a point.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 12:39 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 3:11 PM NoNukes has responded

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 166 (657070)
03-25-2012 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by onifre
03-25-2012 11:43 AM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
You don't care what happens to other human beings?

Not what I said.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 11:43 AM onifre has not yet responded

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