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Author Topic:   The problem with science II
nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 76 of 233 (316223)
05-30-2006 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
05-30-2006 8:49 AM


Re: Two Cultures
quote:
I would agree with you about both those influences. But they are a different kind of shriveling than I'm talking about.
Aren't you talking about the lack of an inner life among humans these days? That we don't think deep thoughts anymore, basically?
Passive entertainment and shopping take the place of reading, thinking, and conversation for most Americans these days.
I'd say that most Americans wouldn't know what you are talking about if you accused them of lacking an innwer life because of how science has taught them to think about themselves.
They's just say, "Yeah, whatever, I have to go. American Idol is coming on in a minute."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 05-30-2006 8:49 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-30-2006 9:11 AM nator has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 77 of 233 (316225)
05-30-2006 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by nator
05-30-2006 9:08 AM


Re: Two Cultures
As I said I agree with you. Doesn't change science's contribution to the problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by nator, posted 05-30-2006 9:08 AM nator has replied

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nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 78 of 233 (316226)
05-30-2006 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Faith
05-30-2006 9:07 AM


Re: Two Cultures
quote:
I've said many times this is not about REAL science. Just about science daring to intrude into the human being.
Well, perhaps you'd like to define what the essence of humanity is for the purposes of this discussion so we can understand where you believe science to be "intruding".
Your claim was that Cognitive psychology, by studying how people think from a scientific standpoint, is "bad".
I countered by saying that just because I can study and understand the physical qualities of some part of nature (human cognition) doesn't mean I cannot also appreciate the creative or beautiful aspects of that same part of nature.
Just because you don't want us to study human cognition doesn't mean that human cognition is a "magical" thing.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 79 of 233 (316227)
05-30-2006 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
05-30-2006 9:11 AM


Re: Two Cultures
quote:
Doesn't change science's contribution to the problem.
I can't see that science has contributed to this problem (lack of inner life) in anywhere near the levels that television and our consumer culture has, if at all.

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 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-30-2006 9:11 AM Faith has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 80 of 233 (316328)
05-30-2006 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
05-30-2006 5:10 AM


Re: Two Cultures
I do believe that the science mentality in general shrinks our inner life for all of us by giving us these pat categories from biology to explain ourselves and causing people to think of themselves in a sort of objectified externalized way as a sort of machine.
There are a wide range of personality types. One or more of them might have what you are characterizing as "the science mentality".
I myself don't think the shrinking of the inner life is solely done by "science mentality". In my home town I would say it was the fundamentalists and literalist who lacked appreciation of an inner life in favor of repetitious dogma.
I remember my bio 110 professor calling us all over in lab to look at some tiny plant under a microscope. He said with deep and happy feeling that more than anything he hoped we would gain an appreciation for the beauty of tiny forms of life. He was a person of real feeling for his students. I also much enjoy the books by Antonio Damasio which I think very admirably relate humanist interests with the unfolding of science.
I think your tendency to absolute dichotomy falsifies the rich continuum of experience and life by overly simplifing it and your reductionism does as much violence to the subtleties and nuances of experience as does scientific reductionism. You are looking into a mirror and what you see there and are complaining about is a projection of your attitude.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 05-30-2006 5:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 81 of 233 (316350)
05-30-2006 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by lfen
05-30-2006 3:34 PM


Re: Two Cultures
The range of personality types is independent of what I'm talking about, which is a worldview that is generated by subsuming human experience and reality under science.
Shrinking the human experience has nothing to do with appreciating the natural world. Since that is in tune with science it isn't shrunk by the scientific worldview.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 80 by lfen, posted 05-30-2006 3:34 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 82 of 233 (316436)
05-30-2006 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
05-30-2006 5:16 PM


Re: Two Cultures
Shrinking the human experience
"The" human experience as in the sum total of experiences of humans? How is that being shrunk?
What is "the human experience"? Are you talking about your experience? my experience?
What is shrinking, or for that matter expanding "the human experience"?
It might help if you specified how experience had been expanded in the past and how it might be expanded in the future. I really don't know if you are talking about popular culture, or television programming, or what books are being discussed on best sellers lists. In brief I know what science is but I'm not sure what the charge of "shrinking human experience" consists of. What sort of crime is it?
lfen

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Sour
Member (Idle past 2274 days)
Posts: 63
From: I don't know but when I find out there will be trouble. (Portsmouth UK)
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 83 of 233 (316497)
05-31-2006 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
05-30-2006 5:16 PM


Shrinking Human Experience
You've said that you don't literally mean that we are experiencing quantitatively less than our ancestors.
You said :
I'm using it in the sense of the shriveling of the inner life, the vocabulary for speaking of it.
So we lack the vocabulary for discussing/representing our human experience? We had a vocabulary for it but have lost it? Are religious texts better at representing our experience? Is this the shrivelling that you speak of, that science leads us to try to be precise about experience, which is imprecise?
Is it that as knowledge increases there is less to wonder about? We seem to grow smaller as science increases our knowledge?
Has a decrease in religiousity qualitatively lessened the value of our experience or our ability to, well, experience the meaning of our experience?

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JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2346 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 84 of 233 (316499)
05-31-2006 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by nator
05-30-2006 8:38 AM


Freud and modern neuroscience
Freud made shit up and didn't test any of his theories.
Therefore, he was wrong about pretty much all of his claims.
That's so last decade . Didn't you know he's flavour of the month again? (The following article appears in the latest issue of Scientific American Mind).
http://mysite.verizon.net/...nettesteelepsychology/id19.html

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 85 of 233 (316529)
05-31-2006 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by JavaMan
05-31-2006 5:30 AM


Reflections on Freud, Consciousness, and Two Cultures
Fascinating article, JavaMan. I've always felt that Freud's theories of mind were applicable as descriptions of an obvious dynamic, though he lacked, as the article points out, the technology to delineate biological mechanisms. His descriptions were also flawed by the blinders of his age (and gender), most apparently (to me) in his conclusion that the patients who reported incestuous abuse were not accurately reporting their experiences.
It is becoming increasingly clear that a good deal of our mental activity is unconsciously motivated.
Indeed: I'd go further and say a good deal of our mental activity itself is unconscious.
My own mind has always been an enigma to me. As a fourth grader, I was selected on the basis of achievement and IQ tests to participate in a program for gifted children that was provoked by Sputnik, funded in a defense act, and clearly aimed at producing scientists with which to combat the Evil Empire (the USSR).
We soon realized we were being groomed as weapons and reacted strongly against it--otherwise, I suspect, I would have gravitated to science rather than the humanities. The program ignored class and essentially selected the highest scoring student from each of our city's grade schools; apparently only white kids were eligible.
Quite a few of us were from lower income homes. A number of us left behind schools that had decided that our boredom, withdrawal, and behavioral issues indicated retardation: as a fourth grader I was reading at a high school level but labeled a slow learner.
We marveled at and puzzled over our new status, trying to find some experiential component to our supposed superiority. We agreed there was no sensation of effort or merit. While we apparently learned more quickly and remembered what we had learned more readily and thoroughly than other kids, there was no conscious participation. Questions elicited answers, but our conscious experience was that of a bystander--the question is put, the answer appears: no sweat, no effort, no conscious identification or involvement with the process.
We discussed whether we would surrender enough of our intelligence to rescue another from retardation and leave us average; we talked about how, when we daydreamed (I might call it meditation today, for we all sought thought-less moments as relief from the constant focus on our intellectual gifts), our fixed sense of identity slipped away. What the world most valued about us seemed not to be part of our conscious selves, and for their purposes we could be anyone at all as long as our brains performed; we found that being anyone at all was a sanctuary.
The most insightful discussions of consciousness and being I have ever known were with a group of fellow 10-year-olds.
We pondered Hell, and how extreme physical pain seemed to overwhelm and erase identity in the same way that stopping thought did; we all struggled with the idea that a punishing God would have to take special care to prevent a conscious identity from crumbling under the weight of torment: either Hell destroyed your identity, in which case God was eternally tormenting an empty shell, or God supernaturally preserved your identity in order to torment you eternally. Neither possibility brought us to a closer walk with Jesus.
We did, of course, discover Freud. I recall with some embarrassment finding a passage that described some of the impulses and drives Freud felt were normal for all females--we would ask the girls if they were normal, then howl in delight when they cautiously supposed they were.
But Freud's focus on the unconscious intrigued us all because it described our dilemma. Our experiences conformed to his theories: urges--sexual, aggressive--that came from who knew where, and cognitive processes that whirred along like little motors without requiring our participation. Our minds chattered along incessantly about both, but when we floated out into our "daydreams" we found a spacious sense of being that was free of them, and we spent long hours talking about what this could mean.
We were also sent once a week to Bible school in an office trailer parked nearby but off school grounds (I gather this was a recent separation meant to satisfy the law). We learned a great deal there about the godless evil of communism. I discovered Buddhist texts and brought them along with great excitement at finding experiences and considerations of consciousness that so paralleled our own; I was suspended briefly for refusing to leave those books at home. Eventually we refused to attend the Bible trailer, and those classes were abandoned.
We are, I think, natural explorers of our own consciousness. It takes considerable effort to stop or control this exploration, at considerable expense to the children who are stopped from wondering about and inspecting their own minds. Of our original class of 10, two became high school suicides, two experienced high school "nervous breakdowns," and most of us became cultural and religious rebels later.
We had considerable interest in science but turned away from it in reaction to our assigned path as rocket scientists or nuke designers. The program had taken a group of bright children and shocked them awake to the big questions of consciousness and identity, and in so doing largely defeated its own purpose of producing weapon-minds.
To return to topic(!), militarization of science and the regimentation of philosophical/religous thought estranged us from science and traditional religious belief alike. I'm sure a Freudian could do a delightful precis of this process in terms of Id, Ego and Superego, and it would be descriptively accurate as far as it went, but it would deal less well with that daydream of universal being, that refuge of stopped thought we discovered.
Science and art are sisters in wonder. Any cultural divide between science and the humanities (loosely termed) is, I think, not so much the fault of science as the political and social agenda of empire, appropriating science for physical power on the one hand, and the humanities for political/propaganda utility on the other. Much turning away from traditional religious belief has more to do with the tendency of religious institutions to hear only voices of power than any corrosive effect from science: Christianity and militarized science got along quite well in those days.

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Neither do anything to him. Behold,
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 Message 84 by JavaMan, posted 05-31-2006 5:30 AM JavaMan has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 86 of 233 (316549)
05-31-2006 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Omnivorous
05-31-2006 10:06 AM


Re: Reflections on Freud, Consciousness, and Two Cultures
Any cultural divide between science and the humanities (loosely termed) is, I think, not so much the fault of science as the political and social agenda of empire, appropriating science for physical power on the one hand, and the humanities for political/propaganda utility on the other.
The problem that caused the divide is the fascination people had a century ago with this new explanatory model, and the enthusiasm with which they applied it to every facet of life, and how it then became a habitual way of thinking. Its terms are inherently reductionistic. Now those terms are used automatically to talk about human experience. This is not a problem with science per se but with its concepts being extended beyond their proper range.

This message is a reply to:
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JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2346 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 87 of 233 (316801)
06-01-2006 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Sour
05-27-2006 9:54 AM


Re: Science is an interpretation of reality not reality itself
Sorry for not replying to this post earlier. Somehow I seem to have missed it. (You must have sent it over the Bank Holiday weekend ).
I'll try to reply properly when I can find some time.

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

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jmrozi1
Member (Idle past 5920 days)
Posts: 79
From: Maryland
Joined: 12-09-2005


Message 88 of 233 (317690)
06-04-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Omnivorous
05-31-2006 10:06 AM


Re: Reflections on Freud, Consciousness, and Two Cultures
Science and art are sisters in wonder. Any cultural divide between science and the humanities (loosely termed) is, I think, not so much the fault of science as the political and social agenda of empire, appropriating science for physical power on the one hand, and the humanities for political/propaganda utility on the other. Much turning away from traditional religious belief has more to do with the tendency of religious institutions to hear only voices of power than any corrosive effect from science: Christianity and militarized science got along quite well in those days.
This is an interesting theory - I always thought science and art had the same differences as the definitions to objective and subjective. I’m not sure what you mean by the “political and social agenda of empire” or how it could produce this aforementioned culture divide, but I’m curious as to what leads you believe that religious institutions tend to hear only voices of power. Also, are these "corrosive effects from science" the product of the direction of science in general or simply the product of science not grounded by ethics?
It is currently my impression that your views on military science and religion have been turned not by the nature of these disciplines, but by people who have a different moral code than your own.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 89 of 233 (319952)
06-10-2006 1:46 PM


The Two Cultures Russian style 1875 or so
Tolstoy in Anna Karenina shows people discussing all the latest ideas, from Darwinism to Communism to the education of women.
Stepan Arkadyevitch is a "liberal" with all the same opinions as today's American liberals, which he holds simply because his peers hold them. One minor character seriously opines that the Russian peasants are halfway between the apes and man -- illustrating the way Darwinism promoted racist type thinking. Somebody laughs about how "intriguing people" always have to believe in a "dangerous party" such as the Communist party, interesting in light of the very dangerous revolution that took over Russia 7 years after Tolstoy's death. Main character Levin thinks the solution to problems of productivity of the land is to educate the peasants, but is answered by someone else, to paraphrase, "What are they going to get out of adding and subtracting and the catechism?" -- demonstrating how religious instruction was considered to be essential to education, which it was in America as well until fairly recently. Another topic is whether educating women is the same thing as emancipating them and expecting them to do the work of men in running the country, and whether that should be called a privilege or a duty they would be taking on.
Anyway, that's all off topic I suppose, but I was fascinated by this section where guests at a party are discussing the place of science in education and their view of its effect on, guess what -- morals. Interesting also, in relation to robinrohan's philosophical position, that science is objected to specifically on the ground that it leads to nihilism:
"I am not expressing my own opinion of either form of culture," Sergey Ivanovitch said, holding out his glass with a smile of condescension, as to a child. "I only say that both sides have strong arguments to support them," he went on, addressing Alexey Alexandrovitch. "My sympathies are classical from education, but in this discussion I am personally unable to arrive at a conclusion. I see no distinct grounds for classical studies being given a preeminence over scientific studies."
"The natural sciences have just as great an educational value," put in Pestsov. "Take astronomy, take botany, or zoology with its system of general principles."
"I cannot quite agree with that," responded Alexey Alexandrovitch "It seems to me that one must admit that the very process of studying the forms of language has a peculiarly favorable influence on intellectual development. Moreover, it cannot be denied that the influence of the classical authors is in the highest degree moral, while, unfortunately, with the study of the natural sciences are associated the false and noxious doctrines which are the curse of our day."
Sergey Ivanovitch would have said something, but Pestsov interrupted him in his rich bass. He began warmly contesting the justice of this view. Sergey Ivanovitch waited serenely to speak, obviously with a convincing reply ready.
"But," said Sergey Ivanovitch, smiling subtly, and addressing Karenin, "one must allow that to weigh all the advantages and disadvantages of classical and scientific studies is a difficult task, and the question which form of education was to be preferred would not have been so quickly and conclusively decided if there had not been in favor of classical education, as you expressed it just now, its moral--disons le mot--anti-nihilist influence."
"Undoubtedly."
"If it had not been for the distinctive property of anti-nihilistic influence on the side of classical studies, we should have considered the subject more, have weighed the arguments on both sides," said Sergey Ivanovitch with a subtle smile, "we should have given elbow-room to both tendencies. But now we know that these little pills of classical learning possess the medicinal property of anti-nihilism, and we boldly prescribe them to our patients.... But what if they had no such medicinal property?" he wound up humorously.
At Sergey Ivanovitch's little pills, every one laughed; Turovtsin in especial roared loudly and jovially, glad at last to have found something to laugh at, all he ever looked for in listening to conversation.
Stepan Arkadyevitch had not made a mistake in inviting Pestsov. With Pestsov intellectual conversation never flagged for an instant. Directly Sergey Ivanovitch had concluded the conversation with his jest, Pestsov promptly started a new one.
"I can't agree even," said he, "that the government had that aim. The government obviously is graded by abstract considerations, and remains indifferent to the influence its measures may exercise. The education of women, for instance, would naturally be regarded as likely to be harmful, but the government opens schools and universities for women."
And the conversation at once passed to the new subject of the education of women.
And as a last note concerning the Two Cultures, I have to comment that there is more knowledge of human nature in Tolstoy's novel than in a century's worth of science probing psychology and sociology.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by lfen, posted 06-10-2006 2:49 PM Faith has replied
 Message 115 by robinrohan, posted 06-10-2006 11:04 PM Faith has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 90 of 233 (319977)
06-10-2006 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
06-10-2006 1:46 PM


Re: The Two Cultures Russian style 1875 or so
I have to comment that there is more knowledge of human nature in Tolstoy's novel than in a century's worth of science probing psychology and sociology.
I quite admire Tolstoy as well as Dostoevsky and the other great novelist. I think I'm getting a clearer grasp of your use of the term "human nature". Shakespeare had a grasp of it also. I think you are referring to a high level synthesis of social, cultural and personal knowledge. I recall but have no citation of an anthropologist telling some tribes people in Africa the story of Hamlet. Now Hamlet's complexity has made for long discussion about his behaviour but these people's immediately understood the problem. He had failed to make proper propitiation to the ancestral spirits and thus the restless ghost of his father brough all the bad fortune. This is too say that knowledge of human nature varies from culture to culture.
The genius of great authors is partly this grasp of the social, culture, personal nexus. It is not the same as the knowledge of science. I understand your preference for it but it is no substitute for science. Tolstoy can't treat strokes, brain tumors, phobias, learning problems, down's syndrome, etc. etc. Pavlov couldn't write the great novels of Tolstoy but neither did Tolstoy do the great scientific experiments that revealed classical conditioning.
I think you are ,as many people, ambivalent about science. No reason you shouldn't be. But I think you are defensively denigrating it and confusing things by overly extending the value of art. And I hightly value art but I wouldn't say that it has more knowledge than science. It is a different kind of knowing about a different aspect of human experience. It is largely about the expression of subjectivity. Science is about objective knowledge. You are entitled to your preferences. But your judgements are just that, statements of preference. It's like saying chocolate is superior to vanilla. Well, yes if you prefer chocolate it's true, but not if you prefer vanilla.
Tostoy had great skill and understanding in protraying subjective human experience. It is inaccurate hyperbole to claim that Tolstoy's novel contain anything close to the developed knowledge of biology, psychology, neurology, anthropology, etc of the last hundred years of science.
lfen

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