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Author Topic:   No knowledge of Creationism.
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 14 of 77 (657211)
03-26-2012 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Son Goku
03-26-2012 6:41 AM


Well, I knew it existed like I knew that the Amish don't use electricity. I didn't realize what it was like, which is more like if the Amish passed out pamphlets on the street explaining how to make a Faraday cage out of wood and pieces of string to build around your child's crib to stop electricity from getting in and eating your babies.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 26 of 77 (659367)
04-15-2012 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ICANT
04-15-2012 3:18 PM


Re: Creationism
Creationism Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Creationism Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
Creationist - definition of creationist by The Free Dictionary
Creationism - Wikipedia
I'd also try to explain the Big Bang to you, but ... meh.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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 Message 24 by ICANT, posted 04-15-2012 3:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 04-15-2012 7:43 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 29 by Chuck77, posted 04-15-2012 8:03 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 28 of 77 (659405)
04-15-2012 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
04-15-2012 7:43 PM


Re: Creationism
Creationism would be the belief that something was created.
No. As you can see by looking at the definition of the word "creationism".
The fact that I believe (for example) that my car was created by Toyota does not make me a creationist. Because creationism is not "the belief that something was created" any more than adoptionism is the belief that something (anything) was adopted by anyone.
You gave me the definition of Biblical creationism.
I gave you the definition of creationism. That's why the dictionary entries said "creationism".

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Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ICANT, posted 04-15-2012 8:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 33 of 77 (659432)
04-15-2012 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Chuck77
04-15-2012 8:03 PM


Re: Creationism
Can you try to explain it to me? Feel free to toss some evidence into the explanation as well. Thanks.
If you'd care to start a thread, we have actual physicists here.

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 34 of 77 (659433)
04-15-2012 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ICANT
04-15-2012 8:17 PM


Re: Creationism
Was your car created from an absence of existence?
It was created. It is something. I am not a creationist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ICANT, posted 04-15-2012 8:17 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ICANT, posted 04-15-2012 11:39 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 42 of 77 (659457)
04-16-2012 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ICANT
04-15-2012 11:39 PM


Re: Creationism
Your car was not created.
It was produced on an assembly line from parts that was made from existing material.
So your car was produced by ordinary processes.
Hi Dr,
Creation is:
1. the act of producing or causing to exist;
I'll leave you to argue that one out with yourself.
Has the universe existed eternally in the past in some form?
OR
Did the universe begin to exist?
I don't know. I do know that I am not a creationist, since that word has a meaning and does not describe me.
---
Why is it important to you to lie about whether I'm a creationist? Is it for the sheer delight of saying things that are obviously untrue, or do you consider it more as a means to an end?

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(5)
Message 43 of 77 (659460)
04-16-2012 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by foreveryoung
04-16-2012 12:58 AM


RATE
It sounds to me like the RATE team just gave up and quit.
Give up? Oh no, they didn't give up. What gave you that impression? Coyote merely said that they found that all the evidence proved them wrong. But they're creationists, that didn't make them give up. It's not like they're scientists or something.
What happened was this. They found that the rocks showed evidence of hundreds of millions of years of radioactive decay. So then they postulated an unevidenced, unobserved mechanism ("accelerated decay") contrary to the known laws of nature, that would make it look like the Earth was old when it was young. But then they noticed that this mechanism would have melted the Earth, boiled the seas, and killed Noah and his floating zoo. So then they postulated an unevidenced, unobserved mechanism contrary to the known laws of nature that would get rid of the heat and make it look like accelerated decay hadn't happened when it had. Then they concluded that the Bible was reliable.
You will notice that by such methods one need never give up on any belief. If you think the sky is green with pink spots, and you look and see that it is blue ... no problem. All you have to do is postulate an unevidenced, unobserved mechanism contrary to the known laws of nature that makes it look blue when it's green with pink spots. You need never give up. Of course, if you do that, you have given up doing science, but you haven't given up your precious, precious belief in the youth of the earth or the greenness of the sky or whatever proposition, contrary to the observed evidence, you would like to believe in despite of all the mere observations that you've ever made.
---
In case you think I'm making any of this up, here's something I wrote about RATE on a previous thread, with quotes, links, and references.
---
Let us turn to the much-vaunted RATE project of the Institute For Creation Research. Amongst their findings, they admit:
A large amount of nuclear decay did indeed occur in the zircons. Other evidence strongly supports much nuclear decay having occurred in the past [14, pp. 335-337]. We emphasize this point because many creationists have assumed that "old" radioisotopic ages are merely an artifact of analysis, not really indicating the occurrence of large amounts of nuclear decay. But according to the measured amount of lead physically present in the zircons, approximately 1.5 billion years worth at today’s rates of nuclear decay occurred.
This is the point at which an actual scientist would start to think that maybe the Earth wasn't all that young. But no, they have a better idea --- "highly accelerated nuclear decay". Though the details are somewhat sketchy:
These diffusion data are not precise enough to reveal details about the acceleration episodes. Were there one, two, or three? Were they during early Creation week, after the Fall, or during the Flood? Were there only 500 to 600 million years worth of acceleration during the year of the Flood, with the rest of the acceleration occurring before that?
The details of how this could have happened are not so much sketchy as non-existent.
At this point I should like to mention that the slogan of the Institute For Creation Reasearch is "Biblical. Accurate. Certain."
It has of course been pointed out to the folks at the ICR that this "accelerated decay" would have melted the Earth, boiled the seas, and killed off Noah and his maritime menagerie. As RATE member Larry Vardiman admits:
The amount of heat produced by a decay rate of a million times faster than normal during the year of the Flood could potentially vaporize the earth’s oceans, melt the crust, and obliterate the surface of the earth.
But they are equal to the challenge:
The RATE group is confident that the accelerated decay they discovered was not only caused by God, but that the necessary removal of heat was also superintended by Him as well.
"With one bound, Jack was free!"
How exactly God achieved this is unclear even to them. As they admit:
The removal of heat was so rapid that it likely involved a process other than conduction, convection, or radiation. (Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth, vol. II, p.763, my emphasis.)
In short, they have discovered the principle of Smacco's Rozar: To any hypothesis, no matter how contrary to reality, further hypotheses may be added to explain away the discrepancy.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by foreveryoung, posted 04-16-2012 12:58 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by foreveryoung, posted 04-16-2012 2:43 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 58 of 77 (659542)
04-16-2012 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by foreveryoung
04-16-2012 2:28 PM


Re: Evidence vs. belief
Yes, I am a biblical literalist. The genealogies are accurate; they just were never meant to measure time. They have been trimmed multiple times to keep them from being unwieldy. The son is still the ancestor of the father in each line. The hebrew language does not neccesitate a 1 generation descent per line. Hundred of generations could be held within one descent line.
So, when the Bible says "son", we shouldn't take that literally, because interpreting the Bible literally would be a stupid way to interpret the Bible.
But you are still a Biblical literalist, and we should interpret the Bible literally, because that is how God wants us to interpret the Bible.
Er ... how about you argue that one out with yourself?
Just because you can't find human fossils, doesn't mean they weren't living. Can you find fossils for every species that ever lived? I didn't think so. You can make no definitive statements about what lived and what didn't live based on fossils.
Sure, but on the same basis you could say: "Just because you can't find pigs with wings, doesn't mean that there aren't winged pigs".
When I say that there were no humans in the Archean and that there are no pigs with wings, I am speaking on the basis of all the evidence that we have.
Now, clearly, we have to (provisionally) make our minds up about things based on all the evidence we have. Well then, it seems that there are no pigs with wings and no humans in the Archean.
I am at the very top of both of my geology classes and was the top of the one I took last semester.
Well, sure, if you never say what you think, then your record would be perfectly good. Also, if I never said what I think, I could pass myself off as a good Christian. But the success of my dishonesty wouldn't make me a good Christian. And if you are deceiving your professors, that doesn't prove that you are good at geology, it proves that you are good at pretending to be good at geology.
Erosion cannot date a single thing. It isn't consistent enough across all situations to be reliable.
No-one said it was a consistent dating method. You were asked whether you could take it into account.
Yes, my model takes plate tectonics into account. My accelerated decay model provides a means for rapid plate movement and subduction.
I for one would like to see if your model consists of anything more than handwaving.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by dwise1, posted 04-16-2012 3:48 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 63 by foreveryoung, posted 04-16-2012 9:26 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 60 of 77 (659545)
04-16-2012 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by foreveryoung
04-16-2012 2:43 PM


Re: RATE
Like I said, they just gave up an quit.
No they didn't.
They lack the ability to think deeper into the matter it seems.
Quite so. The world's leading creationists are idiots. You can put them right.
Well then, why don't you start by talking to them instead of us?
Let us know how you get on.
First, unevidenced,unobserved mechanisms that are contrary to the known laws of nature are called miracles in case you were not aware of that. The creation was a miracle in terms of what happens today. The flood was a miracle in the same sense. The laws of nature were different during creation than they are today. It was changing the very laws of nature that caused the great cataclysm otherwise known as noah's flood ...
Yes, they're called miracles, I do know. So maybe the sky is green but god's working a miracle to make it look blue. Maybe diamonds are as squishy as Jello, but god's working a miracle to make them appear hard. Maybe I have three legs, but god's working a miracle to make it look like I only have two. And maybe the earth is young, but god's done a miracle to make it look old.
You can always fantasize that god has done a miracle to make things look different from how they are. But we have to go by appearances. According to the evidence we have, the sky is blue, diamonds are hard, I have two legs, the Earth is old. If god is deceiving me in any of these respects, then I am in fact deceived.
As for the heat: If the decay was spread out over half a billion years and all the original radioactive material was concentrated in the center of the earth ...
But the materials examined by the RATE project were not in the center of the earth. They were in the crust where they could take samples. Your fantasies about what might have happened in the center of the earth have nothing to do with the evidence that they actually gathered.
he RATE team just caved in because they were intimidated by the proposed problems and didn't have enough ingenuity to think of possible solutions.
No they didn't. They didn't cave in, and they did have sufficient "ingenuity" to make up a lot of unevidenced crap --- as I have shown.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 65 of 77 (659575)
04-16-2012 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by foreveryoung
04-16-2012 9:26 PM


Re: Evidence vs. belief
You think I am not reading the genealogies literally. This is false. I am reading them as the ancient hebrews meant them to be understood. The fault of modern understanding is in poor english translation. If you understood the culture of the ancient hebrew you would recognize by sentence structure when a direct father son genealogy is the case and when an extended father to son genealogy is the case. This is written about extensively on the web.
As dwise1 points out, a non-literal reading of the words "son", "father", "begat", etc doesn't help you here. What matters are the intervals of time.
You say that you're reading them "as the ancient hebrews meant them to be understood", but if you were reading them at all you'd know that they look like this:
3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.
9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan. 10 After he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters. 11 Altogether, Enosh lived a total of 905 years, and then he died.
... and so on and so forth. It doesn't matter if (for example) "the father of Kenan" doesn't literally mean the father of Kenan. What matters is that it gives Enosh's age when Kenan was born.
Using this and other data we can figure out a chronology for the Bible. I've done that myself.
(The excuse about "son" not meaning "son" is (IIRC) used to explain away the discrepancies between the two genealogies of Jesus.)
One web example is " A new approach to earth's history" at Earth was created, destroyed, then naturally renewed.
He writes:
In reality, however, the genealogies from Adam to Abraham originated in an oral culture. While they might initially have included a chronological function, their main purpose was to define the identity of the individual in relation to his forbears. As time went on, the chronological function became impossible to maintain; to remain manageable, the lists had to be repeatedly trimmed.
So far from Genesis being the Word of God, this chap sees it as the written version of a muddled and inaccurate oral history.
Now if you're going to give up on the accuracy of the Bible, why not go the whole hog and be right?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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 Message 63 by foreveryoung, posted 04-16-2012 9:26 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by foreveryoung, posted 04-17-2012 10:07 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 66 of 77 (659576)
04-16-2012 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by dwise1
04-16-2012 3:48 PM


Re: Evidence vs. belief
Well actually, what he thinks and believes really doesn't have any bearing on doing well in geology class.
Except that if he said what he believes in essays and exams, presumably he'd do less well. That was my point.

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 72 of 77 (659610)
04-17-2012 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Adminnemooseus
04-16-2012 11:59 PM


Re: Topic abandonment
If foreveryoung would like to talk about the age of the Earth, I shall start a thread. If he'd prefer it to be in GD format, that's fine by me.

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 75 of 77 (659667)
04-17-2012 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by foreveryoung
04-17-2012 10:07 PM


Re: Evidence vs. belief
See message #67.

This message is a reply to:
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