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Author Topic:   No knowledge of Creationism.
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 881 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 35 of 77 (659439)
04-15-2012 11:01 PM


The idea that the world was created in 7 days and a biblical flood and the tower of babel was assumed as fact by me as soon as I read about such things in the bible. I was 6 years old at the time. Every sermon I listened to from then on confirmed that belief. Every family member of mine believed it except my stepfather who was catholic. It wasn't until 8th grade biology that I heard anything different. It wasn't until I was an adult until I started hearing serious discussions about evolution.

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Coyote, posted 04-15-2012 11:22 PM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 881 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 38 of 77 (659444)
04-15-2012 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Coyote
04-15-2012 11:22 PM


Re: Evidence vs. belief
Some of these issues science can readily test.
As just one example, the global flood ca. 4,350 years ago was tested initially by creationist geologists seeking to document that flood. They could not do so, and had to admit that the flood did not occur as described. This capitulation occurred in the early 1800s, long before Darwin.
Since then the evidence that there was no global flood ca. 4,350 years ago has become overwheming. It is so easy to disprove this that any archaeologist can do it.
I've done it in my own research. What one needs to do is find an archaeological site that cross-cuts the 4,350 year time period. A site that does so by thousands of years is best. Then you examine what occurred before and after that time period, and you look to see if there is any evidence of a major discontinuity at that time.
What I have found in the many sites that I have tested is that there is no discontinuity about 4,350 years ago. Instead there is continuity. I've seen continuity of human cultures, fauna and flora, sedimentary deposition, and mtDNA patterns. This last one is the most telling: the mtDNA patterns were the same both before and after the 4,350 year date.
This shows that there was no discontinuity, as would be caused by a global flood which wiped out all but a select group in the Near East. If there was such a flood, all human mtDNA would be eliminated at about 4,350 years ago and would have been replaced by one type from the Near East (Noah's female kin). This can be shown not to have happened. The same type of evidence can be shown for all fauna and flora: there was no extinction-repopulation event in recent times.
This is the kind of evidence that scientists look at.
I don't believe the biblical genealogies were meant as time measuring instruments, so the whole 4350 year old flood is a bogus argument to me. The flood happened at the hadean/archean boundary. That is 3.9 billion years ago according to radiometric methods. I believe in accelerated radioactive decay so the hadean/archean boundary is actually much younger than that. How much so? I don't know. Much of the sedimentary strata in the geological column is due to marine transgressions and regressions. If we could measure the amount of sediment accumulation on a shore that is currently experiencing either transgression or regression and compare it to the depth of marine sediment of known radiometric age, we could have a more realistic age of the earth.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Coyote, posted 04-15-2012 11:22 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 04-16-2012 12:16 AM foreveryoung has replied
 Message 47 by Granny Magda, posted 04-16-2012 7:19 AM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 881 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 40 of 77 (659448)
04-16-2012 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Coyote
04-16-2012 12:16 AM


Re: Evidence vs. belief
These are ideas that can be tested against evidence.
Accelerated radioactive decay was one of the things the RATE group tested, using over a million dollars in creationist money.
They essentially found that science was right, but refused to believe the evidence they themselves generated.
Assessing the RATE Project: Essay Review by Randy Isaac
Assessing the RATE Project
Do the RATE Findings Negate Mainstream Science?
http://184.173.80.159/...RATEFindingsNegateMainstreamScience
The initial part of the conclusion from this last link:
Young-earth creationists have long claimed there is no evidence for an old Earth. The fact that billions of years of nuclear decay have occurred in Earth history has been denied by most young-earth creationists. Now, the RATE team has admitted that, taken at face value, radiometric dating data is most easily and directly explained by the Earth being billions of years old. This is a remarkable development because no longer can young-earth creationists claim it is merely the naturalistic worldview that makes scientists believe rocks and minerals are millions or billions of years old.
As for the marine transgressions and regressions in the geologic column: we can directly date some of the layers in that column using radiometric methods. Creationists' attempts to discredit radiometric dating have not been successful, as was pointed out in the reviews of the RATE group's project.
Our own poster RAZD has several lengthy threads here on the subject of radiometric dating and all of the various ways in which independent methods of dating produce similar results. I think you should review those threads before you attempt to claim anything to the contrary.
It sounds to me like the RATE team just gave up and quit. They don't have to believe that the only explanation for billions of years of radioactive is a billions of years old earth. What made them give up? Why is it impossible for accelerated decay? I know that the sedimentary layers have been dated. That wasn't my point. Has anyone measured how fast sediment is accumulated in a transgression or regression? Has anyone dated a layer of sediment using that measurement? If so, what age did they come up with? As for reading something before I comment, I would never comment if I did that. If you know what the material said, then tell me the summary. Don't make me spend hours at the library so to speak just so I can have a discussion with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 04-16-2012 12:16 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2012 3:43 AM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 881 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 56 of 77 (659536)
04-16-2012 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Granny Magda
04-16-2012 7:19 AM


Re: Evidence vs. belief
Re: Evidence vs. belief
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I thought you were a biblical literalist? If so, then this appears to be an attempt to have your literalist cake and eat it. Either the genealogies are accurate, in which case they can clearly be used to date biblical events, or they are not accurate, in which case the Bible is errant. I don't see how your middle ground position would work.
Yes, I am a biblical literalist. The genealogies are accurate; they just were never meant to measure time. They have been trimmed multiple times to keep them from being unwieldy. The son is still the ancestor of the father in each line. The hebrew language does not neccesitate a 1 generation descent per line. Hundred of generations could be held within one descent line.
Even using comparative dating, the Hadean was a long time before humans appeared on the scene. In fact, there were no modern animals or plants back then. There were no humans during that period, therefore neither the Hadean nor the Archean can possibly be the Flood era.
Just because you can't find human fossils, doesn't mean they weren't living. Can you find fossils for every species that ever lived? I didn't think so. You can make no definitive statements about what lived and what didn't live based on fossils.
How do you explain this contradiction?
There is no contradiction.
Be sure to mention that to your geology professors.
I am at the very top of both of my geology classes and was the top of the one I took last semester. I am not suicidal. Why should I risk such a good record?
But that's not the only geological process going on is it? For a start there is erosion. There are also subduction zones where whole tectonic plates gradually disappear into the mantle. Does your model take this into account?
Erosion cannot date a single thing. It isn't consistent enough across all situations to be reliable. Yes, my model takes plate tectonics into account. My accelerated decay model provides a means for rapid plate movement and subduction.

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 Message 47 by Granny Magda, posted 04-16-2012 7:19 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2012 2:48 PM foreveryoung has replied
 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2012 2:49 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 61 by Granny Magda, posted 04-16-2012 3:21 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 881 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


(1)
Message 57 of 77 (659541)
04-16-2012 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2012 3:43 AM


Re: RATE
What happened was this. They found that the rocks showed evidence of hundreds of millions of years of radioactive decay. So then they postulated an unevidenced, unobserved mechanism ("accelerated decay") contrary to the known laws of nature, that would make it look like the Earth was old when it was young. But then they noticed that this mechanism would have melted the Earth, boiled the seas, and killed Noah and his floating zoo.
Like I said, they just gave up an quit. They lack the ability to think deeper into the matter it seems. First, unevidenced,unobserved mechanisms that are contrary to the known laws of nature are called miracles in case you were not aware of that. The creation was a miracle in terms of what happens today. The flood was a miracle in the same sense. The laws of nature were different during creation than they are today. It was changing the very laws of nature that caused the great cataclysm otherwise known as noah's flood or known to scientists as the late heavy bombardment. It is what caused the mantle to differentiate into a molten part and different densities of peridotite and crustal material. It is what caused the extreme number of mantle melting events and greater volume of mafic melts. It is what caused the plates to move faster upon a much less viscous athenoshere. It is what caused to the plates to collide and subduct at a much faster rate than today. To sum up: Accelerated decay goes hand in hand with accelerated plate tectonics.
As for the heat: If the decay was spread out over half a billion years and all the original radioactive material was concentrated in the center of the earth, your imagined problems suddenly disappear. The RATE team just caved in because they were intimidated by the proposed problems and didn't have enough ingenuity to think of possible solutions.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2012 3:43 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2012 3:08 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 881 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 63 of 77 (659570)
04-16-2012 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2012 2:48 PM


Re: Evidence vs. belief
So, when the Bible says "son", we shouldn't take that literally, because interpreting the Bible literally would be a stupid way to interpret the Bible.
I suppose you think of taking the bible literally differently than I do. A biblical literalist recognizes literary devices when they are obvious. It is usually the last resort. They also understand the limitations of the modern english mind when it comes to understanding what ancient hebrews meant. Their world was different than our world. What the literalist never, ever does it to jump to saying everything is a metaphor when it doesn't automatically make sense at first glance from a natural reading. The literalist is very careful not to allegorize anything if a literal interpretation is possible at all.
You think I am not reading the genealogies literally. This is false. I am reading them as the ancient hebrews meant them to be understood. The fault of modern understanding is in poor english translation. If you understood the culture of the ancient hebrew you would recognize by sentence structure when a direct father son genealogy is the case and when an extended father to son genealogy is the case. This is written about extensively on the web.
One web example is " A new approach to earth's history" at Earth was created, destroyed, then naturally renewed.
It isn't the main article there but you should have no problem finding it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2012 2:48 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by nwr, posted 04-16-2012 9:58 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 65 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2012 11:37 PM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 881 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 74 of 77 (659663)
04-17-2012 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2012 11:37 PM


Re: Evidence vs. belief
So far from Genesis being the Word of God, this chap sees it as the written version of a muddled and inaccurate oral history.
That is absolutely incorrect. He absolutely sees Genesis as being the word of God. It is absolutely accurate for the information that is intended to be conveyed in the genealogies. You have to understand the purpose of a passage in order to judge its accuracy. What is the purpose of the genealogies?
their main purpose was to define the identity of the individual in relation to his forbears.
What part of this do you not understand? When you understand the purpose of the genealogies for ancient hebrew culture, you will see that the genealogies are actually incredibly accurate.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2012 11:37 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 881 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 77 of 77 (659678)
04-18-2012 1:15 AM


It is ridiculous to read the genesis genealogies and expect them to be of the same type as you would find at ancestry.com for example. The bible is extremely accurate for its purposes and audiences. Imposing modern expectations and cultural biases upon it is stupid, and is just an easy, cheap way to mock something you don't want to believe could possibly be credible.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

  
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