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Author Topic:   No knowledge of Creationism.
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 77 (657280)
03-27-2012 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Son Goku
03-26-2012 6:41 AM


I was wondering did anybody else here grow up with no knowledge of Creationism? I don't think I ever met anybody in my youth who actually thought the world was made in seven days by God only a couple of thousand years ago.
I had of course met people who believed that the universe was created in a single week. I had no idea that people actually believed that the earth was less than 100,000 years old until I was in my 40s. It wasn't until I joined this group that I understood that people were adding up generations in the Bible to come up with 6000.
My father was a professor at a theological seminary. Yet the subject of creationism never came up once during my childhood. That's one reason that I find it puzzling that people could actually believe that Christianity is meaningless without creationist beliefs.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10293
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


(1)
Message 17 of 77 (657428)
03-28-2012 12:53 PM


I was raised as a 4th generation member in a non-Demoninational Protestant Church in a very conservative state. I was taught YEC from a very early age. I remember bringing home a book on evolution from the elementary school library and having my Dad give me a very strange look. He warned me not to believe everything that I read. Later in life I took his advice, but it wasn't the book on evolution that I doubted.

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10293
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


(1)
Message 18 of 77 (657430)
03-28-2012 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by NoNukes
03-27-2012 10:43 AM


That's one reason that I find it puzzling that people could actually believe that Christianity is meaningless without creationist beliefs.
From my first hand experiences, it's as if people are proud of sacrificing Reason in order to uphold their faith. Their faith is so powerful, supposedly, that it overcomes Reason. I get the distinct impression that this is supposed to impress people. It never impressed me, and in fact led me to question my own faith at a young age. I lived in the middle ground for a while, knowing that my christian beliefs did not hinge on the literal accuracy of Genesis. When I moved towards atheism it was not because of YEC, but it certainly shaped my view of faith in general.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 6076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.1


(3)
Message 19 of 77 (657445)
03-28-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Son Goku
03-26-2012 6:41 AM


I think a lot depends on one's age and locale, since Creationism (specifically of the "creation science" variety) has a definite point of origin (the USA, because of the Constitution) and time of origin (again, because of the Constitution, as well as some other factors, such as the Jesus Freak movement).
The ACLU's attempt to get a US Supreme Court decision on banning evolution from the public schools for religious reasons failed when John Scopes' conviction for violating Tennessee's "monkey law" was overturned in the appellate court for purely technical reasons. That infamous trial had two effects on the anti-evolution movement:
1. It marked their victory over evolution, so now they could rest on their laurels and not need to be as publically active.
2. News coverage of the trial had exposed them to the general public as being the ignorant foolish rubes that they were, and that public shaming made them shy away from such exposure.
In addition, very shortly after the trial their dynamic leader, William Jennings Bryan, died, which both demoralized them and left them without a public spokesman, at least not one of anywhere close to equal stature. So for the next half-century they faded back into the background, exerting their pressure and influence at the grassroots level against textbook publishers and individual school boards and teachers, content that their "monkey laws" were still keeping evolution out of the public schools.
But then in the wake of the "science gap" signalled by Sputnik, evolution was reintroduced into the schools, which led to Epperson v. Arkansas (1968), which led to the striking down of the "monkey laws" as being unconstitutional. This got the anti-evolution movement moving again and, after their initial efforts were also barred for being religiously motivated, they invented "creation science", a deliberate deception to circumvent the courts by falsely claiming their opposition to evolution was "for purely scientific reasons and has absolutely no basis in religion." Throughout the 1970's, they ramped up their public visibility mainly through their travelling shows which incorporated both lectures and "debates". Then going into the 1980's, they expanded their ministry (their word for it, demonstrating just how non-religious they were) overseas to other countries.
And, of course, even before all that happened, they had been teaching creationism to their own for decades. But around 1970, burned-out hippies "got hooked on Jesus" and started flooding into fundamentalist churches, causing their membership to increase dramatically and turning formerly small churches eventually into mega-churches (Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel being a local example) as they became highly virulent proselytizing vectors. This "Jesus Freak Movement" -- at first, "Jesus Freak" was a derogatory term used by outsiders, but then the Jesus Freaks embraced the term themselves -- not only provided an eager audience for creationists, but they in turn became vectors for spreading creationism as they proselytized the public unmercilously.
So then, how old you are and where you lived (plus whether you were raised in the fundamentalist community) would be strong determiners of when you first encountered creationism.
In my case, I grew up in an implicitly Protestant household, though I did not learn until I was in college that my father was virtually an atheist; he had become disenchanted by the rampant hypocrisy and as soon as he turned 21 he had nothing more to do with religion. I attended a Protestant church with our neighbors and was baptized into it around age 11. Then a year later I decided to get serious about it and started reading the Bible, though with a nave literalism that, thinking back, I don't think was part of our church. It didn't take me long to realize that I simply could not believe what I was reading, so I left. Further reading and learning some history showed me that I had made the right decision.
Now, growing up most churches seemed normal enough to me, except for the door-to-door types who were to be avoided, and my impression was that young-earth creationists were an extinct breed that had lived centuries ago. In high school, I remember one fundamentalist kid, "Brother Rumsfield", who wasn't popular. All I knew about him was that he had some strange beliefs; at that time (1968-1969), hardly anybody had ever heard the term, "fundamentalist", but that was about to change big-time when the Jesus Freak Movement exploded on the scene.
Family members of my friend became Jesus Freaks and it was through them that I was a fundamentalist "fellow traveller" and I learned more about their beliefs that I would care to know. It was in 1970 that I was first exposed to creationist claims. Besides the general claims of a young earth and Noah's Flood, two specific claims were of the living clam carbon-dated to be thousands of years old and of a NASA computer that discovered "Joshua's Lost Day." It was that NASA computer claim that sealed the deal for me. Even in those days of near-universal computer illiteracy I knew for a fact that no computer could have performed the magic that that claim required. I knew for a fact that those creationist claims were false.
I didn't encounter creationism again until 1981, when their travelling show came to the local university. I had to miss the show since I had duty that night, but it got me thinking. I was surprised that they were still around, which suggested to me that there just might be something to their claims. So I looked into it and the more I looked the more obvious it became that everything they were saying was false. It was also by that time that their political agenda against science education had become very apparent.
Since that time, I continued to study "creation science" and started discussing it on-line on CompuServe circa 1987.

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 Message 1 by Son Goku, posted 03-26-2012 6:41 AM Son Goku has not replied

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 77 (657494)
03-29-2012 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by dwise1
03-28-2012 3:46 PM


I think a lot depends on one's age and locale, since Creationism (specifically of the "creation science" variety) has a definite point of origin (the USA, because of the Constitution) and time of origin (again, because of the Constitution, as well as some other factors, such as the Jesus Freak movement).
I agree with you regarding the history of "creation science", but at least some of the conflict dates from centuries before this period.
When I look at creationism, I divide the collision with science into several areas. A literal interpretation of Genesis conflicts with at least cosmology, geology and biology. The conflict with cosmology and religion extends back to at least the execution of Giordano Bruno in the early 17th century.
These days, it is the conflict with evolution that is often the most prominent, but I am alarmed when people making policy decisions about climate change and conservation insist on basing their opinions in a belief in a 6000 year old earth. This kind of anti-science thinking is dangerous in ways that are of immediate import.
Perhaps because my own children are past the age where I need to worry about school boards running amok, and perhaps in part because I studied physics rather than a life science, I find the issues surrounding evolution less immediate. Creationists to date haven't had much influence over science as taught above the high school level in "real" universities, although certainly the ID crowd has hopes to change that.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by dwise1, posted 03-28-2012 3:46 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
duns
Junior Member (Idle past 4616 days)
Posts: 3
From: Houston, TX, USA
Joined: 04-09-2012


Message 21 of 77 (659033)
04-12-2012 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Son Goku
03-26-2012 6:41 AM


I was wondering did anybody else here grow up with no knowledge of Creationism?
I grew up in Britain. I attended a Methodist school. My mother was very religious. I was sent to Sunday school and church. Until I was 11, I accepted that there was a god (because everyone around me said there was) but god was never defined except in the vaguest way. No one ever suggested the bible was to be taken literally. At 11, I found myself debating god with other children and I found that I could not defend the idea of god. I became an atheist and remain so.
I didn't meet any creationists until I was middle-aged and found myself working with some. They gave anti-evolution lunchtime presentations. I enjoyed debating with them. Eventually, one became so angry that he told me I would change my tune when I was cast into a burning pit for eternity. I got a big kick out of that.
Edited by duns, : No reason given.

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Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 22 of 77 (659040)
04-12-2012 7:54 AM


If I remember correctly, school during childhood had a mixed group of christian kids,both TE and creationist. I remember being taught the creationist story, they merely taught the bible story, but it was not pushed as literal truth, although I don't exactly remember it being denied to be. Books free to read in school taught me about DNA, and I also remember one about the big bang.
Because of the millennium change, the school had a major project based on history. Our class was about dinosaurs, a subject which I knew little of at that age.(7) I don't recall if there were any attempts at reconciliation, but I remember a presentation holding up letters, and my explicit line was ''Dinosaurs have been extinct for X years'', we saw a documentary about it, so based on that my school was liberal about it. I think the liberal Christians were the majority in the school, as are most of the teachers.
I actually learned about Evolution itself reading a translation of the UK horrible science series, the book being about dinosaurs. It explained how Darwin came up with it, and also dealt with the church being in denial about the Dinosaurs and Evolution.
By my early teens, I consciously viewed the Bible as symbolic. My first actual encounter with creationism was when I casually talked with a classmate in secondary school, who, like me, both didn't fit into the larger group that well at times. I don't remember how we got to it, (it was history class though) but he denied the earth being old, to my great astonishment.I didn't realize before people held on to creationist beliefs even when being taught science.
I attended the association of the more orthodox church weekly of the town I live in about 2,5 years ago, simply because I liked discussion and being in a group with friendly people. I didn't know that much about the creationist doctrine beforehand, so I ended up learning a lot about it. . Because I was still secretly having religous OCD, I didn't really mind that much, but it still was somewhat confusing to me.

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 983 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 23 of 77 (659050)
04-12-2012 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Taq
03-28-2012 12:59 PM


Taq:
Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets.
Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148
I'm pretty sure I knew of some people that held to a "young earth" back around 1960, but they were the same people that said "dang" was a curse word. My Presbyterian minister father was a fairly scientifically-minded man, and supplied us with books like the Time-Life history of our planet (cool dinosaur paintings) and The World's Great Religions.
I don't think I really became aware of creationism until the late 90's, and never took any interest in it until 2001 or so, when a local MD had a letter supporting it published in our newspaper. We had a lovely letter-debate, and I found EvC and Internet Infidels.

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ICANT
Member (Idle past 276 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 24 of 77 (659363)
04-15-2012 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Son Goku
03-26-2012 6:41 AM


Creationism
Hi Son,
Son Goku writes:
I was wondering did anybody else here grow up with no knowledge of Creationism? I don't
think I ever met anybody in my youth who actually thought the world was made in seven days by God only a couple of thousand years ago. I was completely surprised when I found this out in my late teenage years.
I was under the impression that you believed in creationism from all the posts we have exchanged.
In fact everyone here that I have engaged except cavediver has held to some sort of creationism. They do not believe in the YEC version but they do believe in creationism as they believe in the BBT.
To have the BBT that begins from a point that has no place to exist one has to believe in creationism, of some sort.
I personally believe from studying the scriptures that the universe and earth have always existed in some form just not in the form we observe it today.
My reason for that belief is that God (existence) is eternal without beginning or end. The text says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Since God had no beginning when was the beginning?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Son Goku, posted 03-26-2012 6:41 AM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-15-2012 3:39 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 04-16-2012 4:36 AM ICANT has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 77 (659365)
04-15-2012 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ICANT
04-15-2012 3:18 PM


Re: Creationism
In fact everyone here that I have engaged except cavediver has held to some sort of creationism. They do not believe in the YEC version but they do believe in creationism as they believe in the BBT.
"Creationism" as used in this thread means an account of cosmology and earth natural history derived from a literal interpretation the description in Genesis chapters 1 and 2. One might argue Creationism (at least some versions of it) is not incompatible with the BBT, and at least one poster (designtheorist?) has done so. But a literal interpretation of Genesis is utterly incompatible with the theory of evolution.
I cannot imagine a way to label most of the posters here, including Son Goku, as a Creationist without making that term essentially meaningless. I find it even more difficult to imagine a definition of the term that would include Son Goku, but exclude cavediver.
Added by edit:
To have the BBT that begins from a point that has no place to exist one has to believe in creationism, of some sort.
Thousands of posts have been made arguing over this exact point. Regardless of your own feelings about how the universe was created, it should be clear by now that many people take issue with your statement and that it does not accurately describe their beliefs.
Edited by NoNukes, : ABE

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

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 Message 24 by ICANT, posted 04-15-2012 3:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 26 of 77 (659367)
04-15-2012 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ICANT
04-15-2012 3:18 PM


Re: Creationism
Creationism Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Creationism Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
Creationist - definition of creationist by The Free Dictionary
Creationism - Wikipedia
I'd also try to explain the Big Bang to you, but ... meh.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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ICANT
Member (Idle past 276 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 27 of 77 (659399)
04-15-2012 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Adequate
04-15-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Creationism
Hi Dr,
Creation is:
1. the act of producing or causing to exist;
Creation Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com.
Creationism would be the belief that something was created.
You gave me the definition of Biblical creationism.
So was the universe created or has it always existed in some form?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-15-2012 3:39 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-15-2012 7:56 PM ICANT has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 28 of 77 (659405)
04-15-2012 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
04-15-2012 7:43 PM


Re: Creationism
Creationism would be the belief that something was created.
No. As you can see by looking at the definition of the word "creationism".
The fact that I believe (for example) that my car was created by Toyota does not make me a creationist. Because creationism is not "the belief that something was created" any more than adoptionism is the belief that something (anything) was adopted by anyone.
You gave me the definition of Biblical creationism.
I gave you the definition of creationism. That's why the dictionary entries said "creationism".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 04-15-2012 7:43 PM ICANT has replied

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Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 77 (659407)
04-15-2012 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Adequate
04-15-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Creationism
Dr Adequate writes:
I'd also try to explain the Big Bang to you, but ... meh.
Can you try to explain it to me? Feel free to toss some evidence into the explanation as well. Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-15-2012 3:39 PM Dr Adequate has replied

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ICANT
Member (Idle past 276 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 30 of 77 (659412)
04-15-2012 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by NoNukes
04-15-2012 3:34 PM


Re: Creationism
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
I cannot imagine a way to label most of the posters here, including Son Goku, as a Creationist without making that term essentially meaningless. I find it even more difficult to imagine a definition of the term that would include Son Goku, but exclude cavediver.
It is simple.
Either the universe was created by some means or the universe has always existed.
I gather from Son's posts to me that he seems to believe the universe began to exist from a point called a singularity which is nothing but a place where the math will not work. If that is the case then something had to cause the universe to begin to exist. This would have to come from an absence of anything.
I gather from cavediver's posts to me that he leans more to the idea that there was something existing in which two branes smacked into each other and caused the universe as we know it today to exist. This would have come from existing material.
I could have misunderstood what they have said and would welcome a clarification if I did.
But regardless there was either existence in which material existed that the universe was formed from.
OR
There was no existence or material for the universe to be formed from. Then all of a sudden something existed which produced the universe as we know it.
So you are a creationist or you believe the universe existed in some form eternally in the past, without beginning.
Now if you have another choice please present it, for my benefit.
NoNukes writes:
Thousands of posts have been made arguing over this exact point. Regardless of your own feelings about how the universe was created, it should be clear by now that many people take issue with your statement and that it does not accurately describe their beliefs.
I personally believe the universe has always existed in some form but not necessarly as we see it today. There is something about energy and matter not being able to be created or destroyed. Besides the Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning. Since God is eternal when was the beginning?
If you or anyone else believes that the universe had a beginning to exist then you are a creationist as it had to begin to exist, from non existence. Thus it was created.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
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