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Author | Topic: An Atheist By Any Other Name . . . | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Granny Magda Member (Idle past 357 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined:
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Hi Chuck,
I wonder what that would say about an orginization of non-stamp collectors having a march...to promote their non-stamp collecting. But of course, no one ever killed anybody because they collected the wrong type of stamps. No-one was ever ostracised from their community because they didn't like stamp-collecting. No-one ever tried to justify misogyny by reference to their favourite stamps. No government gives special decision-making powers to stamp-collectors. No-one ever suggested that stamp-collectors should be exept from tax. It is entirely possible to imagine a non-stamp-collector being elected PotUS, because no-one cares whether the president collects stamps or not. No-one ever tried to sabotage science education and replace it with loopy stories about stamps. Get the picture? Mutate and Survive
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 357 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined:
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Hi Ringo, long time no see!
So how do you respond to a stamp collector who claims that non-stamp-collecting is just another hobby? Presuming that we're still talking about actual stamp collecting or something similarly trivial and harmless, I would ignore them most likely. Dumb-asses are as entitled to their dumb-ass opinions as anybody else. It's when the "stamp collectors" are having a detrimental effect on society that "non-stamp collectors" need to unite. If you regard that as a hobby, I'd say that's more a feature of the metaphor breaking down than anything else. Founding a "We Don't Like Stamp Collecting" club could be seen as a hobby. Similarly, founding a "We Don't Like Religion" club could be seen as a hobby, but, stepping outside of the metaphor again, that still wouldn't make it a religion. Mutate and Survive
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 357 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: |
Hi hooah,
I said that atheism might be - in some circumstances - viewed as a hobby. I didn't say that there was anything wrong with that. I'm just trying to delineate the point where the "hobby" metaphor breaks down. In an ideal world religion would be no more than a hobby as well. Your point about support networks is well made. Mutate and Survive
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 357 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: |
Hi Shadow,
Is an "atheist" making a statement that there is no supernatural or stating there may not be a supernatural? There is a big philosophical difference in those two positions. Well it's kinda both. The difference is based on what we can say with a reasonable degree of certainty and what we feel in our gut. I define myself as an atheist. It is my position that there is no valid reason to believe in a god or gods. I think that this position is logically valid and is entirely justifiable. I think that this position leaves the proper space for tentativity and acknowledgement of my own fallibility. I do not claim to know that gods do not exist, just that there is no reason to suppose that they do. Of course, I would take the same position on leprechauns, celestial teapots and garage dragons. But then, on the other hand, there is my gut feeling. I am pretty certain that there are no gods and no supernatural. If I were to take a punt, I would put my money on the non-existence of gods. The difference here is that I do pretend to know that there are no gods. I can't prove that there are no gods. I can create a pretty good case against their existence, but I can't pretend that I can create a logical argument that absolutely proves that gods aren't real. Still, if you want my opinion, I think that gods are basically fictional. The former is a position that I would be willing to defend in debate. the latter is my personal opinion and so I'm a little more easy-going about it. I would characterise both positions as atheism. Now compare and contrast with the common theist's position that they just know that God is real. Well, sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but no, you don't know. You may think. You may be certain that you are right, but you don't know. And neither do I. No-one knows with 100% certainty what the state of the universe is. No-one knows with 100% certainty whether gods exist or not. Anyone who tells you that they do is a dupe, a lunatic, a fool or a liar. I try to reflect that in my opinions and arguments. Mutate and Survive
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 357 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined:
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I said I was suprised that, according to the info supplied by Catholic Scientis, that some atheists admit that there may be a diety. Yes, but as I mentioned before, I admit that there may be a God only in the same sense that I admit that there may be an invisible dragon in my garage;
quote: I am an a-dragon-ist in the same sense that I am an atheist.
I would think one would be an atheist or an agnostic. I think that characterising atheists into a position where we have no shred of tentativity regarding the existence of gods is an attempt to shoehorn us into an unreasonable position that very few of us hold. I have a tiny scintilla of doubt over whether gods exist. To have any less doubt would be arrogant. If this makes me an agnostic, then I would suggest that any theist who does not possess 100% certainty of God's existence must be an agnostic too. To my mind, the term "agnostic" implies considerably more doubt than this, otherwise what's the value in these terms? All but the most deluded zealots would be agnostic, leaving us with no useful terminology to describe more reasonable positions. Mutate and Survive Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 357 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined:
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There comes a time when I really don't care what non-believers really think You asked. Seriously, you asked, we answered, now you are apparently in a sulk because you don't like the answers. How pathetically childish. I can only suggest that, if you are going to get upset when you don't like the answers, you cease asking questions.
I will believe what I know in my heart is true. You might want to try using your brain.
You will call me delusional. Will it ever end.? Well no. You have said yourself that no evidence or argument could possibly sway you. In the face of such dogmatism, what end could there be? All I can suggest is that you stop asking difficult questions if you're going to act offended when you receive answers. Mutate and Survive
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 357 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined:
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I ask you to give me a truthful answer. And you got dozens of them. You're still not satisfied. In fact, you're starting to get snotty. But wait; I thought you weren't interested in our opinions?
shadow71 writes: There comes a time when I really don't care what non-believers really think. Remember? How does that gel with your alleged desire for honesty? Were you lying then or are you lying now?
Do you believe there is any evidence or argument that could possibly sway you to that God exists? Of course. he could appear before in all his blazing glory. Throw some lightning around, wrestle a unicorn, you know... all his showy stuff. That might not instantly convince me - I would have to bear in mind the strong possibility that I had gone stark staring mad - but it would certainly give me cause to serious rethink Christianity. As I have explained over and over, I am not a dogmatist or a zealot. I am not like you. I can admit to myself that I might be wrong. this is the difference between us and the reason why atheist thinking is so baffling to you. not everyone thinks like you; some of us have humility.
And, why do nonbelievers on this board and people like Sagan call believers "delusional"? Because (a) we think you are delusional and (b) because you asked! You asked for honest answers! Well you got them! I can't tell you that I think you're right when I really think that you're wrong. I owe you that much respect at least. As Theo said above, if you believe in God and I believe gods to be fictional, then it necessarily follows that I think you are deluded. It also follows that you think that I am deluded. You claim that there is clear evidence of God, although you seem unsure as to what it might actually be. Lourdes or something? You don't know... Well I am in denial of that evidence. Clearly, I am deluded. Just for the record, when in Message 88 I said "To my mind, the term "agnostic" implies considerably more doubt than this, otherwise what's the value in these terms? All but the most deluded zealots would be agnostic, leaving us with no useful terminology to describe more reasonable positions." I was talking about a hypothetical zealot, someone who claimed absolute knowledge of God's existence. I was not talking about you. At time I had assumed that I was speaking to a reasonable person. Having read your comments in Message 100 though, I can now see why you chose to take offence at my criticism of deluded zealots. Anyhow, I am at a loss to explain your continued presence in this thread. You don't want to change our minds. You have made it clear that you are enough of a zealot that nothing could even conceivably change your mind. You're not interested in what anyone else thinks. You're not even really telling us much about what you think. What's the point? What are you trying to accomplish? Or are you really just whining because Carl Sagan called you deluded? Mutate and Survive
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 357 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined:
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"Doctor Shadow! Doctor Shadow! You have to help me! My family are really robots sent from the future to kill me! It's because I'm really Alexander the Great, or possibly Napoleon. Or both! Also the nurses in this hospital are secretly flesh-eating aliens sent by the government who are out to get me because my psychic powers let me discover their conspiracy to control people's minds through the TV news!"
"Well, whilst I may disagree with you on certain matters I respect your right to believe whatever you like. Far be it from me to call you delusional." "Really? Wow. All the other doctors offered me anti-psychotic medications. Well cheers anyway Doc, I'm off to kill me some robots!" Mutate and Survive
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