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Author Topic:   An Atheist By Any Other Name . . .
Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 27 of 209 (657604)
03-29-2012 2:48 PM


My feelings on this are similar to Jonathon Miller's below. I was well into my 40s before I even had to use the word and that was in the USA where I had no idea a non-belief was so controversial. Back home nobody I knew was a 'believer' in the creationist sense, so the idea that my non-beliefs required a name never occurred.
It's only the fact that there are extreme believers that require us atheists to have a name they can use for us.
We are allowing ourselves to be named by those we disagree with.
Jonathan Miller: Let me say right at the outset that I've always been very reluctant to use the word "atheist," not because I'm embarrassed or ashamed of it but I think that this view scarcely deserves a title. No one has a special name for not believing in witches--I'm not an "a-hexist"--and I don't have a word for not believing in ghosts or anything of that sort. So the idea of there being a special name for what I've never had--which is a belief in God--seems to me to be odd, to say the least.
Still, my attitude toward the notion of a supernatural being is identical to that of those who do call themselves atheists, though I hold this view without any sort of vehemence or enthusiasm or evangelical drive. In that sense I'm rather unlike Richard Dawkins, for example, who is a zealous proselytizer for atheism. And I think one of the reasons for the difference is autobiographical--that he is what I call a "born-again atheist:" he started his life as a Christian, was a Christian until he was about sixteen, then read Charles Darwin and, as a result, became an atheist. I come from a Jewish family but was never brought up with any sort of Jewish practices at all. And I don't even know what being a Jew is--I'm a Jew for anti-Semites and that's really all. So I'm what I would call a "cradle atheist," insofar as I am an atheist.
Page not found - TheHumanist.com

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Rahvin, posted 03-29-2012 3:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 30 of 209 (657610)
03-29-2012 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Rahvin
03-29-2012 3:03 PM


Rahvin writes:
We are who we are, we believe what we believe, and a name doesn't alter any of that.
Which is my point really. I never had cause to call myself an atheist until I met people who believed in lots of crazy things that I didn't.
Why have a name at all? it's not necessary.
[btw in Ireland i'm an Apixie too]

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 108 of 209 (658327)
04-04-2012 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by New Cat's Eye
04-03-2012 10:28 AM


Re: "Positive" Atheism
CS writes:
The real test is to answer this question succinctly:
'Does god exist?'
I think there are actually two questions and they give different answers.
'Do you believe in god(s)?'
The answer to that is either yes or no. (The answer 'don't know' means that the you don't believe in god)
The second question 'does god exist?' can factually only be answered with 'I don't know'.
The diference between the two questions explains why Dawkins can be both an atheist and an agnostic and why the leader of the Church of England can be both an agnostic and a theist.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 10:28 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2012 10:25 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 114 of 209 (658356)
04-04-2012 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2012 10:25 AM


Re: "Positive" Atheism
CS writes:
Right, but also: Answering the question 'does god exist?' with a "no" could just be you expressing your belief that it does not exist. The questions don't have to be separate.
Yes I could, but then I would just be offering a statement of belief rather than fact using inexact language.
Some here would disagree.
Yes, but they would then be wrong ;-)
But saying 'no' still leaves the ambiguity to the question of whether or not you believe that they don't exist.
That's why it needs two questions one about the belief and one about the facts. If you can't support a 'Yes' answer to the question 'does god exist?' with proof, you're just wrong.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2012 10:25 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2012 11:48 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 121 of 209 (658370)
04-04-2012 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2012 11:48 AM


Re: "Positive" Atheism
CS writes:
Right. But its there none the less
and it's still wrong, nonetheless.
You can reasonably answer "no" to the question "does god exist?" without having to make a statement of fact.
That's why, if we're not just talking casually - which I assumed we weren't because we were discussing how Dawkins can be an agnostic AND an atheist and how there are several kinds of atheist etc - two questions are required. One that deals with belief and one that deals with fact.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2012 11:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2012 2:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 126 of 209 (658384)
04-04-2012 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2012 2:11 PM


Re: "Positive" Atheism
CS writes:
What is wrong?
Doesn't matter now, I think we're in agreement :-)
Edited by Tangle, : I swear, if I get the bloody quote syntax wrong one more time, i'll go out and give five quid to a Christian.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 179 of 209 (658776)
04-09-2012 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by shadow71
04-09-2012 1:35 PM


Re: Delusion? In a word
shadow writes:
To me there is a big difference between wrong and delusional
Could that be because you're delusional?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by shadow71, posted 04-09-2012 1:35 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by shadow71, posted 04-09-2012 7:41 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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