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Author
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Topic: An Atheist By Any Other Name . . .
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Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 286 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: 11-12-2007
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Message 181 of 209 (658779)
04-09-2012 2:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 176 by shadow71
04-09-2012 1:35 PM
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Re: Delusion? In a word
"Doctor Shadow! Doctor Shadow! You have to help me! My family are really robots sent from the future to kill me! It's because I'm really Alexander the Great, or possibly Napoleon. Or both! Also the nurses in this hospital are secretly flesh-eating aliens sent by the government who are out to get me because my psychic powers let me discover their conspiracy to control people's minds through the TV news!" "Well, whilst I may disagree with you on certain matters I respect your right to believe whatever you like. Far be it from me to call you delusional." "Really? Wow. All the other doctors offered me anti-psychotic medications. Well cheers anyway Doc, I'm off to kill me some robots!" Mutate and Survive
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 176 by shadow71, posted 04-09-2012 1:35 PM | | shadow71 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 184 by shadow71, posted 04-09-2012 7:40 PM | | Granny Magda has not replied |
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dwise1
Member Posts: 6076 Joined: 05-02-2006 Member Rating: 7.1
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Message 182 of 209 (658787)
04-09-2012 3:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 170 by shadow71
04-09-2012 12:44 PM
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Re: hedging
I am just sick and tired of being called delusional because I believe in God.
I haven't done that, nor would I. Why are you accusing all non-believers of doing that? You don't understand what non-believers think and you don't want to, but then in your self-imposed ignorance you proclaim what non-believers think. And you don't see a problem with that? I would reserve the label of "delusional" for those who maintain false beliefs even in the face of contradictory evidence and even in spite of the evidence, which is the case of "creation science" creationists. There is no evidence for God, nor is there really evidence against, so I don't see how one can label someone delusional just for believing in God. Though a friend from church once told me his story. Although he was and is (self-described) "a complete atheist and thorough humanist", he had previously for many years been a fervent fundamentalist Christian. As he described it, he was confronted every day with a lot of evidence that contradicted his beliefs, so he had to constantly deceive himself that that evidence did not exist, having to practice more and more self-deception with every day that passed. Finally, the strain of that self-deception became too much for him, so he applied the Matthew 7:20 Test to Christianity, it failed that test hands-down, and he became an atheist, and is now much happier and more spiritually fulfilled than he ever was as a Christian. So, we also have the word of an ex-Christian that delusion was a very important part of his former life as a Christian, such that that delusion was what he had to use to protect his faith. Which is in keeping with my opinion: believing in God is not delusional, but maintaining false beliefs in spite of reality does require one to be delusional.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 170 by shadow71, posted 04-09-2012 12:44 PM | | shadow71 has replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 3182 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 183 of 209 (658801)
04-09-2012 7:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 182 by dwise1
04-09-2012 3:40 PM
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Re: hedging
dwise1 writes:
So, we also have the word of an ex-Christian that delusion was a very important part of his former life as a Christian, such that that delusion was what he had to use to protect his faith. Which is in keeping with my opinion: believing in God is not delusional, but maintaining false beliefs in spite of reality does require one to be delusional. Here is the word of one of the most respected atheist philosphers of the 20th century, revered by Dawkins et. al. who found he was maintaining false beliefs.
Anthony Flew writes:
Now it often seems to people who are not atheists as if there is no conceivable piece of evidence that would be admitted by apparently scientific-minded dogmatic atheists to be a sufficent reason for conceding "There might be a God after all." I therefore put to my former fellow-atheists the simple central question. "What would have to occur or to have occurred to constitute for you a reason to at least consider the existence of a superior Mind?" Moving on now from the parable, it's time for me to lay my cards on the table, to set out my own views and the reasons that suppport them. I NOW BELIEVE THAT THE UNIVERSE WAS BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE BY AN INFINITE INTELLIGENCE. I BELIEVE THAT THIS UNIVERSE'S INTRICATE LAWS MANIFEST WHAT SCIENTISTS HAVE CALLED THE MIND OF GOD. I BELIEVE THAT LIFE AND REPRODUCTION ORIGINATED IN A DIVINE SOURCE. Why do I believe this, given that I expounded and defended atheism for more than a half century? The short answer is this: this is the world picture, as I see it, that has emerged from modern science. Science spotlights three dimensions of nature that point to God. The first is the fact that nature obeys laws. The second is the dimension of life, of intelligently organized and purpose-driven beings, which arose from matter. The third is the very existence of nature. But it is not science alone that has guided me. I have also been helped by a renewed study of the classical philosphical arguments. My departure from atheism was not occasioned by any new phenomenon or argument. Over the last two decades, my whole framework of thought has been in a state of migration. This was a consequence of my continuing assessment of the evidence of nature. When I finally came to recognize the existence of a God, it was not a paradigm shift, because my paradigm remains, as Plato in his Republic scripted his Socrates to insist: WE MUST FOLLOW THE ARGUMENT WHEREVER IT LEADS." From Anthony Flew's "There is a God" Hopefully this will awaken the non-believers on this board to follow the evidence. To get rid of your delusions that there is no God. There is a God. Let go of your arrogant distain for anyone who believes in God and get rid of that myth that atheistism has degrees. Quit hedging your bets. Best respects, Shadow 71 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 182 by dwise1, posted 04-09-2012 3:40 PM | | dwise1 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 191 by dwise1, posted 04-09-2012 11:58 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 192 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-09-2012 11:59 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 194 by PaulK, posted 04-10-2012 1:38 AM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 195 by Percy, posted 04-10-2012 6:45 AM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 196 by Modulous, posted 04-10-2012 8:12 AM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 197 by crashfrog, posted 04-10-2012 8:17 AM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 198 by Taq, posted 04-10-2012 11:32 AM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 3182 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: Delusion? In a word
See message 183
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 3182 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 185 of 209 (658803)
04-09-2012 7:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 180 by Rahvin
04-09-2012 2:12 PM
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Re: Delusion? In a word
See message 183
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 180 by Rahvin, posted 04-09-2012 2:12 PM | | Rahvin has not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 3182 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Message 186 of 209 (658804)
04-09-2012 7:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 179 by Tangle
04-09-2012 1:59 PM
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Re: Delusion? In a word
See message 183
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 179 by Tangle, posted 04-09-2012 1:59 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 3182 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: hedging
See message 183
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 3182 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: 08-31-2010
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Re: Delusion? In a word
See message 183
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 177 by Theodoric, posted 04-09-2012 1:44 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 189 by nwr, posted 04-09-2012 8:08 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 190 by Theodoric, posted 04-09-2012 8:35 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6484 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 9.1
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Message 189 of 209 (658807)
04-09-2012 8:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 188 by shadow71
04-09-2012 7:42 PM
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Re: Delusion? In a word
You don't have to do that. Most people here will see Message 183 anyway, and would prefer not to see the multiple repeats of "see message x". So instead, just click on the "has not yet responded" line to indicate that you have seen the message.
Jesus was a liberal hippie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 188 by shadow71, posted 04-09-2012 7:42 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 6.5
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Message 190 of 209 (658808)
04-09-2012 8:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 188 by shadow71
04-09-2012 7:42 PM
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Re: Delusion? In a word
See message 183
typical fundie response don't address the post. Post some quote from somebody that you claim is an authority and claim victory. What Anthony Flew has to say means nothing. It is his opinion nothing more. The way he was used by christians duting his doddering old age is disgusting and offensive. If you don't want to debate, don't waste our time.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 188 by shadow71, posted 04-09-2012 7:42 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied |
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dwise1
Member Posts: 6076 Joined: 05-02-2006 Member Rating: 7.1
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Message 191 of 209 (658817)
04-09-2012 11:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 183 by shadow71
04-09-2012 7:40 PM
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Re: hedging
You have no response so you switch to blatant proselytizing. You have conceded defeat, which is ironic because we weren't having a contest. You are being unspeakably vile! You want to turn me into a monster who would embrace a theology that damns my dead son to eternal damnation! Well, you may find it easy to be a monster, but I most definitely refuse to become one! I nearly called you "Scum", but realized that that would be insulting to scum.
Do not do it again!
Before you use a source, shouldn't you learn something about it first? You can start learning by reading the Wikipedia article on Antony Flew, who died of dementia in 2010 after years of mental decline during which he had "deconverted" from atheism. One problem with your quote from There is a God is that Flew did not write it, but rather the "co-author", Roy Abraham Varghese, did the actual writing. Another problem is that you and Flew are talking about two very different gods. He wasn't converting to Christianity, but rather to deism. His God was the Aristotelian God, not the Christian God. And Flew very specifically made that distinction. So you receive no support from Flew, which you would have known by having done a minimum amount of research before using Flew for support. All you have succeeded in doing has been to make a fool of yourself.
Let go of your arrogant distain for anyone who believes in God and get rid of that myth that atheistism has degrees.
Yet again you are lying about what I think and believe! You know better and yet you insist on lying! Typical Christian! Yes, I am growing to disdain you! Not because you believe in God, but rather because you are an unspeakably vile proselytizer and you insist on lying about what others think and believe!
Quit hedging your bets.
After all this time and everybody's explanations, you still have no clue what "hedging one's bets" means? You keep ignoring the facts and maintain false beliefs in spite of the facts. You have clearly and amply demonstrated that you are delusional. And belief in God has nothing to do with it, except for your delusion that you must lie and ignore the truth in order to protect and promote your faith. Disgusting!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 183 by shadow71, posted 04-09-2012 7:40 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 192 of 209 (658818)
04-09-2012 11:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 183 by shadow71
04-09-2012 7:40 PM
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Antony Flew
Here is the word of one of the most respected atheist philosphers of the 20th century, revered by Dawkins et. al. Though peculiarly he only attained this pre-eminence among atheists after he became a theist, before which neither you nor I nor anyone I know had ever heard of him, let alone "revered" him. Yes, it's jolly nice for you that one atheist changed his mind (or Alzheimer's disease changed it for him) but don't exaggerate. I don't go about pretending that John Loftus used to be the Pope. As to his opinions ...
Flew states that he has left his long-standing espousal of atheism by endorsing a deism of the sort that Thomas Jefferson advocated ("While reason, mainly in the form of arguments to design, assures us that there is a God, there is no room either for any supernatural revelation of that God or for any transactions between that God and individual human beings."). [...] He supported the idea of an Aristotelian God with "the characteristics of power and also intelligence", stating that the evidence for it was stronger than ever before. He rejects the ideas of an afterlife, of God as the source of good (he explicitly states that God has created "a lot of" evil), and of the resurrection of Jesus as a historical fact. Apparently there is only one theological point you agree with him on, so I wouldn't make him your champion if I were you.
From Anthony Flew's "There is a God" Well, no, not really. From Roy Varghese's "There Is A God". Let's be accurate. From the New York Times:
As he himself [Flew] conceded, he had not written his book. This is really Roy’s doing, he said, before I had even figured out a polite way to ask. He showed it to me, and I said O.K. I’m too old for this kind of work! When I asked Varghese, he freely admitted that the book was his idea and that he had done all the original writing for it. But he made the book sound like more of a joint effort slightly more, anyway. There was stuff he had written before, and some of that was adapted to this, Varghese said. There is stuff he’d written to me in correspondence, and I organized a lot of it. And I had interviews with him. So those three elements went into it. Oh, and I exposed him to certain authors and got his views on them. We pulled it together. And then to make it more reader-friendly, HarperCollins had a more popular author go through it. So even the ghostwriter had a ghostwriter: Bob Hostetler, an evangelical pastor and author from Ohio, rewrote many passages, especially in the section that narrates Flew’s childhood. With three authors, how much Flew was left in the book? He went through everything, was happy with everything, Varghese said. Cynthia DiTiberio, the editor who acquired There Is a God for HarperOne, told me that Hostetler’s work was limited; she called him an extensive copy editor. He did the kind of thing I would have done if I had the time, DiTiberio said, but editors don’t get any editing done in the office; we have to do that in our own time. I then asked DiTiberio if it was ethical to publish a book under Flew’s name that cites sources Flew doesn’t know well enough to discuss. I see your struggle and confusion, she said, but she maintained that the book is an accurate presentation of Flew’s views. I don’t think Tony would have allowed us to put in anything he was not comfortable with or familiar with, she said. I mean, it is hard to tell at this point how much is him getting older. In my communications with him, there are times you have to say things a couple times. I’m not sure what that is. I wish I could tell you more. . . We were hindered by the fact that he is older, but it would do the world a disservice not to have the book out there, regardless of how it was made. Flew's reasoning for deism is not clear from the excerpt you have posted, but he seems to have been bamboozled by the ID crowd concerning science, a subject on which he is inexpert.
Antony Flew Roy Varghese pretending to be Antony Flew writes: Why do I believe this, given that I expounded and defended atheism for more than a half century? The short answer is this: this is the world picture, as I see it, that has emerged from modern science. Then the obvious question would be: why haven't modern scientists noticed that this is the "world picture" that they have produced? I would suggest that it's because they know more about science than Flew and Varghese put together. This is not hard.
atheistism Are you sure you've got enough suffixes there? Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 183 by shadow71, posted 04-09-2012 7:40 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Re: Antony Flew
Here is the word of one of the most respected atheist philosphers of the 20th century, revered by Dawkins et. al. Though peculiarly he only attained this pre-eminence among atheists after he became a theist, before which neither you nor I nor anyone I know had ever heard of him, let alone "revered" him. With apologies to A. A. Milne ...
3 Cheers for Flew!
(For who?)
For Flew -
(Why, what did he do?)
I thought you knew;
Oh, listen, do!
I am talking of Flew!
(Of who?)
Of Flew!
(I'm sorry, I keep forgetting).
Well, Flew was a Man of Enormous Brain
(Just say it again!)
Of enormous brain -
(Of enormous what?)
Well, he wrote a lot,
And I don't know if he could think or not,
So now let's give three hearty cheers!
(So now let's give him three hearty whiches?)
And hope he'll be with us for years and years,
And grow in health and wisdom and riches!
3 Cheers for Flew!
(For who?)
For Flew -
3 Cheers for the wonderful Antony Flew!
(Just tell me, somebody - WHAT DID HE DO?)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 192 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-09-2012 11:59 PM | | Dr Adequate has not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17906 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 7.2
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Message 194 of 209 (658822)
04-10-2012 1:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 183 by shadow71
04-09-2012 7:40 PM
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Re: hedging
quote:
Here is the word of one of the most respected atheist philosphers of the 20th century, revered by Dawkins et. al. who found he was maintaining false beliefs.
By which you mean "here are the words of a dishonest fundamentalist, who took advantage of an old man's failing mind, to put words into his mouth."
quote:
Hopefully this will awaken the non-believers on this board to follow the evidence. To get rid of your delusions that there is no God.
I don't see how Varghese's disgusting amorality or your own hypocrisy - which is all your evidence here shows - can be considered evidence that there is a God.
quote:
Let go of your arrogant distain for anyone who believes in God and get rid of that myth that atheistism has degrees.
By which you mean "Reject the truth and worship me!"
quote:
Quit hedging your bets.
By which you mean "quit being intellectually honest!" Why bother with this display of pride and contempt for honesty and truth ? Did you really think that it would convince anyone ?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 183 by shadow71, posted 04-09-2012 7:40 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22929 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 7.2
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Message 195 of 209 (658824)
04-10-2012 6:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 183 by shadow71
04-09-2012 7:40 PM
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Re: hedging
shadow71 writes: Quit hedging your bets. You still don't seem to know what this means. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 183 by shadow71, posted 04-09-2012 7:40 PM | | shadow71 has seen this message but not replied |
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