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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 84 of 131 (848718)
02-14-2019 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by LamarkNewAge
02-13-2019 9:44 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
LamrkNewAge writes:

I am not so much offering evidence ("powerful" though - as Price admits - it is when a sound historical methodology is used), as trying to get the legions ( should I say The Legions) of internet followers up to speed on the actual issues.


Maybe you're not the right person for the job.

But if you insist on continuing, why not start slooooooooowly? Instead of trying to bury us in an avalanche of text, pick a point and DISCUSS it.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-13-2019 9:44 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-14-2019 6:57 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 87 of 131 (848804)
02-15-2019 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by LamarkNewAge
02-14-2019 6:57 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
LamarkNewAge writes:

The "right person" is ANYBODY who has actually read a tiny bit of the actual Jesus Myther arguments.


No. The "right person" is somebody who knows the meaning of the word "discuss". You make the same mistake in this post, galloping off in all directions.

Pick a point. State it simply. Then shut the @#$% up and let people respond to it. Then you can respond to their responses.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-14-2019 6:57 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2019 10:59 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 90 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-16-2019 1:07 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 91 of 131 (848835)
02-16-2019 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by LamarkNewAge
02-16-2019 1:07 AM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
LamarkNewAge writes:

ringo writes:

Pick a point. State it simply.


My point is people were not even discussing the relevant issues in the debate.

Pick a point in the debate

LamarkNewAge writes:

The issue of Jesus being divine from the start is a requirement for the "Jesus never existed" crowd.


The question is, "Did Jesus Exist?" Whether or not He was "divine" doesn't enter into it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-16-2019 1:07 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-16-2019 11:03 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 94 of 131 (848841)
02-16-2019 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by LamarkNewAge
02-16-2019 11:03 AM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Lamarknew Age writes:

The "Jesus Did Not Exit" crowd, have their entire case riding on the idea that Jesus started out as a God/Titan (or some sort of cosmic creature), as represented by (essentially) the Letters of Paul.


I'm part of that "crowd". I don't believe that Jesus, the human, existed - because there is no solid evidence that he existed. I think the stories about him are most likely based on an amalgamation of preachers who wandered Palestine in the 1st century - like Sinclair Lewis' Elmer Gantry was based on real-life evangelists.

It has NOTHING to do with any gods.

LamarkNewAge writes:

... the first big requirement is to demonstrate that Paul did not imagine an "earthly" human Jesus).


You have the cart before the horse. You can't consider Paul's ideas about Jesus until you establish that Paul existed and that the writings attributed to him accurately reflect his views.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-16-2019 11:03 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 02-16-2019 12:11 PM ringo has responded
 Message 97 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-16-2019 1:57 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 96 of 131 (848845)
02-16-2019 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
02-16-2019 12:11 PM


Re: The Foreign Legion Of Mythos
Phat writes:

And yet it does.


Read what you quote. I said that MY reasons for not believing Jesus existed have nothing to do with Gods.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 02-16-2019 12:11 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-16-2019 2:33 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 100 of 131 (848852)
02-16-2019 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by LamarkNewAge
02-16-2019 1:57 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
LamarkNewAge writes:

Now we have somebody saying Paul was some late fictional paper man? (Ringo)


I'm saying that Paul is not relevant to this discussion.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-16-2019 1:57 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-16-2019 2:50 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 102 of 131 (848854)
02-16-2019 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by LamarkNewAge
02-16-2019 2:50 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
LamarkNewAge writes:

So you don't care if he wrote 1 Cor, II Cor, and Galatians around 55 A.D.?

Well, then can I say Paul said Jesus was "born of a woman" and had a "mother"?

It does not matter, the interpretation?


I'm trying not to stutter:
Nothing about Paul has anything to do with whether or not Jesus existed.

Why would it? Does it matter what Santa Claus thinks about Bigfoot?

If you think Jesus existed, you need to produce evidence that Jesus existed. Somebody else's opinion on whether or not Jesus existed is not evidence.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-16-2019 2:50 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2019 3:21 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 104 of 131 (848856)
02-16-2019 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by LamarkNewAge
02-16-2019 2:33 PM


Re: The Foreign Legion Of Mythos
LamarkNewAge writes:

You also said Paul did not exist?

But some single author wrote seven of his 13 letters (that can't be argued by anybody)

Why not just call him "Paul"?


You're shooting yourself in the foot.

If "somebody" can be established as the genuine dyed-in-the-wool author of 7 out of 13 letters, that does not establish him as "the" Paul.

And it still has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus existed.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-16-2019 2:33 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 105 of 131 (848857)
02-16-2019 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Theodoric
02-16-2019 3:21 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
From what I've seen, both the Jesus-myth side and the anti-myth side are basing all of their arguments on similarities to other myths - i.e. they're really only arguing the plausbility of the Jesus character having been made up out of whole cloth. They don't seem to grasp the concept of actual evidence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2019 3:21 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2019 3:43 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 122 of 131 (848907)
02-18-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by LamarkNewAge
02-17-2019 9:59 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
LamarknewAge writes:

My problem with the methodology starts with:

Jesus Mythers generally start out with a conclusion then search for an excuse to justify the conclusion.


The proper default position is that something doesn't exist until there is solid evidence that it does exist - e.g. unicorns, fairies.

It's believers who start with the conclusion that Jesus did exist and grasp at every straw to try to support it.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-17-2019 9:59 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:54 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 125 of 131 (848916)
02-18-2019 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
02-18-2019 12:54 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Phat writes:

If either a unicorn or fairy had impacted human history as much as a supposed mythological figure, the conclusion that I would start with is that there must be something to this character.


You keep bringing that up and the answer is still the same. The impact of the character is caused by belief in the character - and by charlatans exploiting that belief for political or economic gain. Neither the belief nor the ulterior motives add to the reality of the character.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:54 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:37 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 128 of 131 (848922)
02-18-2019 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
02-18-2019 1:37 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Phat writes:

OK, but my question would then be why *this* character? Why not another traveling rabbi? Why did Jesus catch on while lesser brands fizzled?


Buddha caught on. Mohammed caught on. Joseph Smith caught on. What does catching on have to do with the validity of the message?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:37 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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