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Author | Topic: Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman | |||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
I am trying to establish what it is we are debating.
Post 504 was attempt #1 Here is my attempt 2.0 Percy made this comment:
quote: Percy said here (only here, and I grant his Jesus Myth arguments were more consistent with Carrier/Price in most places) that the issue is whether Jesus actually committed supernatural feats (?) (though the Sermon On The Mount was absent miracles and infact was almost materialistic/non spiritual in its many/most of Jesus' comments), and the issue is not whether Jesus ever existed or not. He, added this, to the work load of Jesus Myther historians, earlier in post 495
quote: I thought it was a glaring inaccuracy that does not capture the spirit of the Jesus Myther thesis at all. In neither word nor deed do Jesus Mythers ever claim the argument is anything other than a sound historical argument which finds that Jesus never existed and was in fact never believed to have existed as a man, by the early Christian communities during the time up to the correspondence of Paul, reflected in his extant Epistles. Correct? The Jesus Myther argument considered the 7 authentic letters of Paul to be especially pertinent to the case that Jesus was never believed to have existed as a man up until the time just before the writing of the first Gospel - generally/strongly taken to be the Gospel of Mark. Correct? The most relevant epistles are: RomansI Corinthians II Corinthians Galatians 1 Thessalonians Philippians Philemon (slightly less certain, per Carrier) Correct? So, let us begin... Percy errs when he seems to say c57 CE Christians being talked to by Paul as if he existed as a biological man is not the big issue to Robert M Price and Richard Carrier?
quote: Percy seems to miss the point, perhaps?
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
quote: I asked you if you understand why I feel you have a problem with the methodology historians use? You ignored that one. So TAKE 2: Have you ever complained about historian's methods? You cant ignore that one, can you? Surely no...
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
quote: You never complained about historian's methodology when it comes to the existence of Jesus? Because those who claim he never existed always complain about the methodology of the 99% of historians that say he did exist.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
quote: So do you deny the human existence of Jesus, 2000 years ago, or not?
quote: You also deny you ever complained about the methodology of mainstream historians, when it comes to the existence of Jesus.
quote: I find it hard to believe that somebody who claims Jesus never existed: A - claims he never complained about the methodology of mainstream historians B - has no opinion on Richard Carrier and Robert M Price
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
Name me a single (known ethnic) Jewish historian that says Jesus did not exist.
Israel has a ton of specialists that are massively interested in Biblical studies.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
How many Ivy League historians ever doubted Jesus existed?
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
You seem to be very evasive when it comes to bringing some sort of methodological criticism to the table.
You don't have to be a technician to have technique. You have a fringe view, and you act like methodology is almost an afterthought. Why don't you trust the near unanimity of historians, who work in the field? Why is the massive consensus wrong?
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
quote: Oh, I was going to allow you to pick and choose radical historians, but you need to have an idea what is wrong with the mainstream ones.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
There are some ethnic Jewish scholars who deny Jesus existed. I need to check my book inventory. Some books I have never read yet come to mind.
But all deniers are fringe. Robert Eisenmann has moved much closer to the myther viewpoint, but he is not one I am referring to.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/16065
Theodoric never told us that!
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
I thought you said you have his book On The Historicity Of Jesus
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
I (slightly) asked you about demographic profiles of the scholars)historians, and you followed with a crack about dating single Jewish historians.
I will ask again: I assume you feel like the historians are a group that is disproportionately white, and specifically Christian and Jewish. I would argue that Jewish scholars won't be predisposed to Jesus existing, and many will be secular, anyway. I would also counter that polls have Americans at 63 percent Christian, and I think whites are only 58 to 61 percent Christian. Germany has more historians & scholars per capital than anywhere else (except perhaps Israel), and I think Germany has been generally a liberal Christian (theologically liberal) country since World War 2, with alot of educated secular individuals. You don't really make your case that methods are flawed, and I mean you don't make it at all
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
Much more relevant than Percy making jokes about Jewish historians being single.
I don't hold a grudge against you, even if you own an ebook on sexting. But the Richard Carrier issue is relevant. I started this exchange because you were running your mouth on Carriers application of statistics. But you did not apply anything Carrier tried to teach you.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
I will use my personal observations and discussions as an example.
I have had 30+ minute conversations, in my younger life, with (for example) a U.S. congressman. We had a good conversation on Porphyry the Canaanite, the founder of Neoplatonism, and Julian the Apostate. It was a conversation which carried over weeks, and 3 encounters. The historian R Joseph Hoffman came up, in our conversations. An influential atheist historian, who is a great scholar of the first four centuries of the Christian period. I mentioned his 1984 book on Marcion earlier. Hoffman is still writing and translating. I think he was a Jesus Myth believer in the 1990s, and possibly earlier. Perhaps only briefly. Hoffman is a critic of Jesus Mythic work now, but he has been a vocal atheist all along the way
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
Evidence for what?
Honestly. Wtf?
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