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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 507 of 563 (917599)
04-11-2024 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 505 by Theodoric
04-11-2024 2:48 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
I am trying to establish what it is we are debating.
Post 504 was attempt #1
Here is my attempt 2.0
Percy made this comment:
quote:
(post 495)
If the real Jesus did none of the non-miraculous things written of him, such as the baptism by John or the overturning of the tables at the temple or the Sermon on the Mount, then he's not really a historical Jesus.
Percy said here (only here, and I grant his Jesus Myth arguments were more consistent with Carrier/Price in most places) that the issue is whether Jesus actually committed supernatural feats (?) (though the Sermon On The Mount was absent miracles and infact was almost materialistic/non spiritual in its many/most of Jesus' comments), and the issue is not whether Jesus ever existed or not.
He, added this, to the work load of Jesus Myther historians, earlier in post 495
quote:
We're left with being asked to trust what religious believers say, and I trust none of them from any religion.
I thought it was a glaring inaccuracy that does not capture the spirit of the Jesus Myther thesis at all. In neither word nor deed do Jesus Mythers ever claim the argument is anything other than a sound historical argument which finds that Jesus never existed and was in fact never believed to have existed as a man, by the early Christian communities during the time up to the correspondence of Paul, reflected in his extant Epistles.
Correct?
The Jesus Myther argument considered the 7 authentic letters of Paul to be especially pertinent to the case that Jesus was never believed to have existed as a man up until the time just before the writing of the first Gospel - generally/strongly taken to be the Gospel of Mark.
Correct?
The most relevant epistles are:
Romans
I Corinthians
II Corinthians
Galatians
1 Thessalonians
Philippians
Philemon (slightly less certain, per Carrier)
Correct?
So, let us begin...
Percy errs when he seems to say c57 CE Christians being talked to by Paul as if he existed as a biological man is not the big issue to Robert M Price and Richard Carrier?
quote:
You mean [to say Carrier is concerned about Jesus'] ancestry?

Obviously you see something in Romans and in the writings of Carrier and Price that Theodoric and I do not see.
​....

​--Percy
Percy seems to miss the point, perhaps?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2024 2:48 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:01 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 508 of 563 (917600)
04-11-2024 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by Percy
04-11-2024 3:14 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
quote:
I don't think you're accurately representing what people have said.

As I said before, I'll respond to any posts from you that I understand and that are on-topic.

--Percy
I asked you if you understand why I feel you have a problem with the methodology historians use?
You ignored that one.
So TAKE 2:
Have you ever complained about historian's methods?
You cant ignore that one, can you?
Surely no...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 3:14 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 509 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 4:35 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 511 of 563 (917603)
04-11-2024 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 509 by Percy
04-11-2024 4:35 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
quote:
It often feels like your understanding of what people say is at serious odds with what they actually said.

--Percy
You never complained about historian's methodology when it comes to the existence of Jesus?
Because those who claim he never existed always complain about the methodology of the 99% of historians that say he did exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 4:35 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:34 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 512 of 563 (917604)
04-11-2024 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 510 by Percy
04-11-2024 5:01 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
quote:
This is a substantial misunderstanding of what you just quoted me saying.
So do you deny the human existence of Jesus, 2000 years ago, or not?
quote:
I don't know who the "Jesus Mythers" are. If that's Carrier and Price then, as I said earlier, I'm not familiar with them and was certainly not trying to capture their spirit.
You also deny you ever complained about the methodology of mainstream historians, when it comes to the existence of Jesus.
quote:
Again, I've heard the names of Carrier and Price and that's it. I have no idea what their "big issue" is and so could never have commented on it. Your understanding of what people are saying often does not match what they are actually saying.
I find it hard to believe that somebody who claims Jesus never existed:
A - claims he never complained about the methodology of mainstream historians
B - has no opinion on Richard Carrier and Robert M Price

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:01 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 514 of 563 (917606)
04-11-2024 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by Percy
04-11-2024 5:34 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
Name me a single (known ethnic) Jewish historian that says Jesus did not exist.
Israel has a ton of specialists that are massively interested in Biblical studies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:34 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 516 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:49 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 515 of 563 (917607)
04-11-2024 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by Percy
04-11-2024 5:34 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
How many Ivy League historians ever doubted Jesus existed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:34 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:51 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 517 of 563 (917609)
04-11-2024 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by Percy
04-11-2024 5:49 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
You seem to be very evasive when it comes to bringing some sort of methodological criticism to the table.
You don't have to be a technician to have technique.
You have a fringe view, and you act like methodology is almost an afterthought.
Why don't you trust the near unanimity of historians, who work in the field?
Why is the massive consensus wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:49 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 525 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 8:44 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 519 of 563 (917611)
04-11-2024 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by Percy
04-11-2024 5:51 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
quote:
You seemed to be focused on the argument from authority, a common fallacy. Discussion here should focus on building arguments around evidence.

--Percy
Oh, I was going to allow you to pick and choose radical historians, but you need to have an idea what is wrong with the mainstream ones.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:51 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 520 of 563 (917612)
04-11-2024 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by Percy
04-11-2024 5:51 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
There are some ethnic Jewish scholars who deny Jesus existed. I need to check my book inventory. Some books I have never read yet come to mind.
But all deniers are fringe.
Robert Eisenmann has moved much closer to the myther viewpoint, but he is not one I am referring to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 5:51 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 521 of 563 (917613)
04-11-2024 6:56 PM


Richard Carrier: “I still counted Romans 1:3 as evidence for historicity!”
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/16065
Theodoric never told us that!

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2024 7:24 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 523 of 563 (917615)
04-11-2024 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 522 by Theodoric
04-11-2024 7:24 PM


Re: Richard Carrier: “I still counted Romans 1:3 as evidence for historicity!”
I thought you said you have his book On The Historicity Of Jesus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 522 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2024 7:24 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 7:36 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied
 Message 527 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2024 9:06 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 526 of 563 (917618)
04-11-2024 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by Percy
04-11-2024 8:44 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
I (slightly) asked you about demographic profiles of the scholars)historians, and you followed with a crack about dating single Jewish historians.
I will ask again:
I assume you feel like the historians are a group that is disproportionately white, and specifically Christian and Jewish.
I would argue that Jewish scholars won't be predisposed to Jesus existing, and many will be secular, anyway.
I would also counter that polls have Americans at 63 percent Christian, and I think whites are only 58 to 61 percent Christian.
Germany has more historians & scholars per capital than anywhere else (except perhaps Israel), and I think Germany has been generally a liberal Christian (theologically liberal) country since World War 2, with alot of educated secular individuals.
You don't really make your case that methods are flawed, and I mean you don't make it at all

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by Percy, posted 04-11-2024 8:44 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by Percy, posted 04-12-2024 7:25 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 528 of 563 (917620)
04-11-2024 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by Theodoric
04-11-2024 9:06 PM


Re: Richard Carrier: “I still counted Romans 1:3 as evidence for historicity!”
Much more relevant than Percy making jokes about Jewish historians being single.
I don't hold a grudge against you, even if you own an ebook on sexting.
But the Richard Carrier issue is relevant.
I started this exchange because you were running your mouth on Carriers application of statistics.
But you did not apply anything Carrier tried to teach you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2024 9:06 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 530 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2024 10:37 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 537 by Percy, posted 04-12-2024 7:48 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 529 of 563 (917621)
04-11-2024 9:52 PM


Why I feel Percy could be very wrong about Jesus Historians
I will use my personal observations and discussions as an example.
I have had 30+ minute conversations, in my younger life, with (for example) a U.S. congressman.
We had a good conversation on Porphyry the Canaanite, the founder of Neoplatonism, and Julian the Apostate.
It was a conversation which carried over weeks, and 3 encounters.
The historian R Joseph Hoffman came up, in our conversations.
An influential atheist historian, who is a great scholar of the first four centuries of the Christian period.
I mentioned his 1984 book on Marcion earlier. Hoffman is still writing and translating.
I think he was a Jesus Myth believer in the 1990s, and possibly earlier. Perhaps only briefly.
Hoffman is a critic of Jesus Mythic work now, but he has been a vocal atheist all along the way

Replies to this message:
 Message 531 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2024 10:38 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 532 of 563 (917624)
04-11-2024 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by Theodoric
04-11-2024 10:38 PM


Re: Why I feel Percy could be very wrong about Jesus Historians
Evidence for what?
Honestly.
Wtf?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2024 10:38 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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