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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 478 of 563 (917567)
04-10-2024 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by LamarkNewAge
04-10-2024 2:51 PM


Re: Reply to Percy and the multiple Theodorics.
LamarkNewAge in Message 477 writes:
How about we go about things this way:
Read this Richard Carrier response to Robert M Price, and then tell me what you think about the difference in techniques and style.
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/17174
How about we follow the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-10-2024 2:51 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 480 of 563 (917569)
04-10-2024 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by LamarkNewAge
04-10-2024 3:57 PM


Re: Reply to Percy and the multiple Theodorics.
You just cut-n-pasted 3000 words into a message. This, too, is from the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.
If you have evidence to present and arguments to make then that's what you should do. In your own words.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-10-2024 3:57 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-10-2024 4:12 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 483 of 563 (917572)
04-10-2024 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by LamarkNewAge
04-10-2024 4:12 PM


Re: Reply to Percy and the multiple Theodorics.
I can't help you in your discussion with Theodoric, though I was wondering if your discussion with him ties into the topic.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-10-2024 4:12 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 484 of 563 (917573)
04-10-2024 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by LamarkNewAge
04-10-2024 4:24 PM


Re: Does Paul talking to "Christians" in Romans 1:3-4 prove anything?
LamarkNewAge in Message 482 writes:
Does the fact that Paul was a real guy who was really speaking (via writing or otherwise) to real followers of Jesus (Jesus What?), mean anything?
Quoting the passage:
quote:
Romans 1: 1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
You ask if it means anything. Regarding the historicity of Jesus, no.
Carrier seems to admit that it could be a big blow to Jesus Mythers position if this correspondence was with people who ALREADY felt Jesus was a human.
I believe that is what Carrier wrote.
quote:
as if Paul’s having to ingratiate himself to a crowd believing Jesus biologically descended from David doesn’t outright refute mythicism altogether. It’s thus Price’s approach I find wanting. That’s why I don’t adopt it.
I don't know anything about Carrier or Price, but why do you find anything in this persuasive about the historicity of Jesus?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-10-2024 4:24 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-10-2024 5:02 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 495 of 563 (917586)
04-11-2024 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 485 by LamarkNewAge
04-10-2024 5:02 PM


Re: Does Paul talking to "Christians" in Romans 1:3-4 prove anything?
How is any of this evidence for the historical Jesus?
LamarkNewAge in Message 485 writes:
...Romans 1:1-4 was sayings about Jesus' biology...
You mean ancestry?
Obviously you see something in Romans and in the writings of Carrier and Price that Theodoric and I do not see. My own view is that you can build a stack of baseless opinions to the moon and it would mean less than one iota of actual historical evidence. The supposed greatest figure in history somehow managed to escape any mention at all by historians that goes beyond "reports say there was a guy who had followers."
We're left with being asked to trust what religious believers say, and I trust none of them from any religion. I see no difference in your protestations of the truth of Christianity than I do in a Jew's claim of the truth of Judaism or a Muslim's claim of the truth of Islam and so on.
It was argued earlier that even if the Jesus of faith didn't exist (the miraculous Jesus, the resurrected Jesus, the God Jesus), Paul at least based his Jesus of faith upon an actual person, the historical Jesus, who was quite possibly just an obscure mystic who did not live the life described in the gospels, or at least none of the miraculous things. Or maybe he was a composite.
If the real Jesus did none of the non-miraculous things written of him, such as the baptism by John or the overturning of the tables at the temple or the Sermon on the Mount, then he's not really a historical Jesus. He's just a guy Paul made up stories about. Early Christian communities made up more stories providing more detail that were based upon Paul's sparse commentaries.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-10-2024 5:02 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 9:19 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 499 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 11:07 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 500 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 12:17 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 501 of 563 (917593)
04-11-2024 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 12:17 PM


Re: And now my NO SHIT moment (Saved the rest of Percy's post 495 for last)
Sorry, I have no idea what you're on about. I'll respond to posts I understand that address the topic.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 12:17 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 1:14 PM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 506 of 563 (917598)
04-11-2024 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 2:12 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
I don't think you're accurately representing what people have said.
As I said before, I'll respond to any posts from you that I understand and that are on-topic.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 2:12 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 508 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 3:27 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 509 of 563 (917601)
04-11-2024 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 508 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 3:27 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
It often feels like your understanding of what people say is at serious odds with what they actually said.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 3:27 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:15 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 510 of 563 (917602)
04-11-2024 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 3:23 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
LamarkNewAge in Message 507 writes:
Percy made this comment:
quote:
(post 495)
If the real Jesus did none of the non-miraculous things written of him, such as the baptism by John or the overturning of the tables at the temple or the Sermon on the Mount, then he's not really a historical Jesus.
Percy said here (only here, and I grant his Jesus Myth arguments were more consistent with Carrier/Price in most places) that the issue is whether Jesus actually committed supernatural feats (?) (though the Sermon On The Mount was absent miracles and in fact was almost materialistic/non spiritual in its many/most of Jesus' comments), and the issue is not whether Jesus ever existed or not.
This is a substantial misunderstanding of what you just quoted me saying.
He, added this, to the work load of Jesus Myther historians, earlier in post 495
quote:
We're left with being asked to trust what religious believers say, and I trust none of them from any religion.
I thought it was a glaring inaccuracy that does not capture the spirit of the Jesus Myther thesis at all.
I don't know who the "Jesus Mythers" are. If that's Carrier and Price then, as I said earlier, I'm not familiar with them and was certainly not trying to capture their spirit.
Percy errs when he seems to say c57 CE Christians being talked to by Paul as if he existed as a biological man is not the big issue to Robert M Price and Richard Carrier?
Again, I've heard the names of Carrier and Price and that's it. I have no idea what their "big issue" is and so could never have commented on it. Your understanding of what people are saying often does not match what they are actually saying.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 3:23 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:22 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 513 of 563 (917605)
04-11-2024 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 5:15 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
LamarkNewAge in Message 511 writes:
You never complained about historian's methodology when it comes to the existence of Jesus?
I'm afraid not.
Because those who claim he never existed always complain about the methodology of the 99% of historians that say he did exist.
It's more likely that Jesus isn't even within the purview of 99% of historians.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:15 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:42 PM Percy has replied
 Message 515 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:46 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 516 of 563 (917608)
04-11-2024 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 5:42 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
LamarkNewAge writes:
Name me a single (known ethnic) Jewish historian that says Jesus did not exist.
I don't think I could name even one contemporary historian, let alone an ethnic Jewish historian who happens to be single.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:42 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:51 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 518 of 563 (917610)
04-11-2024 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 5:46 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
LamarkNewAge in Message 515 writes:
How many Ivy League historians ever doubted Jesus existed?
You seemed to be focused on the argument from authority, a common fallacy. Discussion here should focus on building arguments around evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:46 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:55 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 520 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 6:00 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 524 of 563 (917616)
04-11-2024 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 7:28 PM


Re: Richard Carrier: “I still counted Romans 1:3 as evidence for historicity!”
LamarkNewAge in Message 523 writes:
I thought you said you have his book On The Historicity Of Jesus
After doing a search on this thread, if Theodoric ever said that it wasn't here.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 7:28 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 525 of 563 (917617)
04-11-2024 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 5:51 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
You added to your message after I read it.
LamarkNewAge in Message 517 writes:
You have a fringe view, and you act like methodology is almost an afterthought.
I don't know why you would say that latter part.
Why don't you trust the near unanimity of historians, who work in the field?
Are they really historians, though? Or are they religious scholars? Primarily Biblical religious scholars.
Why is the massive consensus wrong?
The primary reason is that religious beliefs prevent objectivity. Another reason is that the consensus itself causes its own feedback loop, strengthening faith in the belief.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 5:51 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 9:06 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23188
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 536 of 563 (917629)
04-12-2024 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 526 by LamarkNewAge
04-11-2024 9:06 PM


Re: Just to be clear when I lament close-mindedness and hostility to science
LamarkNewAge in Message 526 writes:
I assume you feel like the historians are a group that is disproportionately white, and specifically Christian and Jewish.
Not historians but Biblical and Quranic (the Quran mentions Jesus) scholars. I've made no assumptions about race.
You don't really make your case that methods are flawed, and I mean you don't make it at all
I never mentioned methods. It's their conclusions I think are wrong.
What's important is not what the consensus of religious scholars think but the evidence upon which their thinking is based.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-11-2024 9:06 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
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