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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1399
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 121 of 131 (848898)
02-18-2019 7:47 AM


I already posted a long post on this Josephus Ant. Book 20 IN ANOTHER THREAD.
(it was like 90% my own words)

https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=page&t=19733&mpp=...

See my post 1659

Theodoric did not respond in any meaningful way.


    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16227
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 122 of 131 (848907)
02-18-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by LamarkNewAge
02-17-2019 9:59 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
LamarknewAge writes:

My problem with the methodology starts with:

Jesus Mythers generally start out with a conclusion then search for an excuse to justify the conclusion.


The proper default position is that something doesn't exist until there is solid evidence that it does exist - e.g. unicorns, fairies.

It's believers who start with the conclusion that Jesus did exist and grasp at every straw to try to support it.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-17-2019 9:59 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:54 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 123 of 131 (848913)
02-18-2019 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ringo
02-18-2019 11:08 AM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
If either a unicorn or fairy had impacted human history as much as a supposed mythological figure, the conclusion that I would start with is that there must be something to this character.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 02-18-2019 11:08 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Tangle, posted 02-18-2019 12:58 PM Phat has responded
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 02-18-2019 1:00 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6668
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 124 of 131 (848915)
02-18-2019 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
02-18-2019 12:54 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Odd that you don't think that about Mohammed or Joseph Smith or......

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:54 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:44 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16227
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 125 of 131 (848916)
02-18-2019 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
02-18-2019 12:54 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Phat writes:

If either a unicorn or fairy had impacted human history as much as a supposed mythological figure, the conclusion that I would start with is that there must be something to this character.


You keep bringing that up and the answer is still the same. The impact of the character is caused by belief in the character - and by charlatans exploiting that belief for political or economic gain. Neither the belief nor the ulterior motives add to the reality of the character.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:54 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:37 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 126 of 131 (848920)
02-18-2019 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ringo
02-18-2019 1:00 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
OK, but my question would then be why *this* character? Why not another traveling rabbi? Why did Jesus catch on while lesser brands fizzled?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 02-18-2019 1:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 02-18-2019 1:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 129 by Theodoric, posted 02-18-2019 2:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 127 of 131 (848921)
02-18-2019 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Tangle
02-18-2019 12:58 PM


Jesus Drove The Franchise War
Tangle writes:

Odd that you don't think that about Mohammed or Joseph Smith or......

I'll saythis much. Neither Muhammed nor (especially) Joseph Smith would have even been widely known had Jesus not started the trend. Muhammed was Burger King to Jesus McDonalds. Islam had their own hero to emulate...and in opposition to those pesky European Catholics. Same with our Mormon franchise here in America. They needed to have their own brand. The next question is what did jesus originally represent that made Him a popular brand? Hope for oppressed downtrodden people? Liberation from stern secular governments? Liberation from authoritarian religions? Or perhaps you guys will argue that He became a myth that supported the creation of a franchise.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Tangle, posted 02-18-2019 12:58 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Tangle, posted 02-18-2019 2:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16227
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 128 of 131 (848922)
02-18-2019 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
02-18-2019 1:37 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Phat writes:

OK, but my question would then be why *this* character? Why not another traveling rabbi? Why did Jesus catch on while lesser brands fizzled?


Buddha caught on. Mohammed caught on. Joseph Smith caught on. What does catching on have to do with the validity of the message?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:37 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5953
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 129 of 131 (848924)
02-18-2019 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
02-18-2019 1:37 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Mormonism and Islam caught on while their founders were still alive. Why does catching on imply that Jesus was a historical figure? Christianity "caught on" over 100 years after this character supposedly was executed. Seems to be a problem there.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:37 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6668
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 130 of 131 (848925)
02-18-2019 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
02-18-2019 1:44 PM


Re: Jesus Drove The Franchise War
Phat writes:

I'll saythis much. Neither Muhammed nor (especially) Joseph Smith would have even been widely known had Jesus not started the trend.

I think the Jews would argue that Jesus was a newcomer to the trend. But in any case, the point is that other successful brands are available so your point is rebutted.

The next question is what did jesus originally represent that made Him a popular brand? Hope for oppressed downtrodden people? Liberation from stern secular governments? Liberation from authoritarian religions?

Sure and political opportunism etc.

Or perhaps you guys will argue that He became a myth that supported the creation of a franchise.

He probably WAS a myth that supported the creation of a franchise. And it's probably not a single He.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:44 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1399
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 131 of 131 (848942)
02-18-2019 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Theodoric
02-17-2019 8:48 PM


Origen is used to show the Testimonium Flavianum did not exist before 250 A.D.
Theodoric keeps blowing the Testimonium Flavianum (Josephus Ant. Book 18) flute.

He has really been performing a clever "bait and switch", because he keeps making comments like this, to "prove" that the Book 20 reference to "brother of Jesus called Christ" was forged.

quote:

As for Josephus you are less than honest in your comments. IN the Testimonium he is reputed to say.

quote:

He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ.

Not something an observant Jew would say. But more importantly it does not matter. This is not evidence of Jesus. It is evidence that people believed in him. No corroboration. Find corroboration.


Theodoric is not only a one note flute, but it always is with a bait and switch.

He follows this pattern.

ONE:

Ask for first-century documents mentioning Christians and Biblical characters.

TWO:

Wait for somebody to present them, which they will

THREE:

Change the subject (such as Josephus Ant. Book 20) to another (Book 18).

FOUR:

Claim that one bit of evidence for later Christian tampering causes ALL other evidence to be thrown out.

(Did I miss anything?)

Now, what about Theodoric's law code?

This legal technicality argument is getting old.

(What law code are you applying anyway)

You push him long enough, and he responds:

quote:

As for Josephus, you miss my point completely. The one Jesus reference puts the other into doubt.

I think we all get your point.

But you can only really say the Testimonium Flavianum (Josephus Ant. Book 18 reference to Jesus: "He was the Christ") is likely a POST 250 CHRISTIAN INSERTION because Origen did not mention it, and the absence of mention by Origen is all the more impressive because he positively comments on Josephus' lack of belief in Jesus as Messiah. The evidence does seem to indicate that the TF is an insertion from around 300 A.D.

But Origin did say that Josephus mentioned the "brother of Jesus, called Christ" and he specifically described a murder. Origin even attempted to interpret Josephus' comments as somehow supportive of the idea that the killing of James caused the Temple to be destroyed.

Yet there were no textual changes, to Jospehus' Antiquities, that worked that powerful Christian idea (clearly held from the mid-second century Hegesippus through Origen in the first half of the third century and INTO THE FORTH) into the Josephus text.

The BOOK 20 (not the Book 18 TF!) text has no evidence of changes to fit Christian theological views of the history of the destruction of the Temple.

Origen lived from 184-253.

During Origens time:

The "brother of Jesus called Christ" in Book 20 was in Josephus' text, it seems.

The "He was the Christ" in Book 18 (Testimonium Flavianum) was not.

Theodoric says, "The one Jesus reference puts the other into doubt".

I can't prove that there were no changes, to Book 20, before 200 A.D. But it seems that there were no changes after 200. Changes (major ones too) to Book 18, around 300, only prove that Book 18 was changed.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2019 8:48 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
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