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Author Topic:   radical liberals (aka liberal commies) vs ultra conservatives (aka nutjobs)
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 241 of 300 (661732)
05-09-2012 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Panda
05-09-2012 5:20 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Is imprisonment a breach of a human's right to liberty?

The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others. If you are imprisoned for simply speaking your mind then this is a violation of human rights. If you are imprisoned for commiting murder, then it is not a violation of the human right to liberty.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Panda, posted 05-09-2012 5:20 PM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Panda, posted 05-09-2012 5:40 PM Taq has responded

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2488 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 242 of 300 (661735)
05-09-2012 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Taq
05-09-2012 5:20 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Ok , I see what you are saying. Thanks, I must start at the beginning of this topic.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
— Hunter S. Thompson

Ad astra per aspera

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 5:20 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2056 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 243 of 300 (661736)
05-09-2012 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Taq
05-09-2012 5:26 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Taq writes:

The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others.


So, when someone is imprisoned for tax avoidance, that is a breach of their human rights?
And when someone is imprisoned for trespassing, that is a breach of their human rights?
And when someone is imprisoned for burglary, that is a breach of their human rights?
And when someone is imprisoned for animal cruelty, that is a breach of their human rights?

Or perhaps you would like to add some more criteria to your 'right of liberty'?


Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 5:26 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 5:53 PM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2056 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 244 of 300 (661739)
05-09-2012 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by NoNukes
05-09-2012 4:28 PM


Re: Questioning the line of reasoning...
NoNukes writes:

I don't care what Taq says.


When I am pointing out a problem with Taq's position, it seems silly for you to jump in and say "But that is not what I think!".
/shrug

NoNukes writes:

And the fact that some people don't recognize some right does not mean it does not exist. It just means that the right is not universally accepted or respected.


And if you read what I wrote (here it is again):
quote:
And the fact that different people feel differently about something that only happens in certain countries shows how non-universal the human right of 'liberty' is.
...you can see that I didn't say that they didn't exist.
In fact, you have pretty much repeated what I wrote.

Try this:
If one person thinks that humans have a right to liberty and another person thinks that humans don't have a right to liberty, how do you determine which of them is correct?


Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by NoNukes, posted 05-09-2012 4:28 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 5:56 PM Panda has not yet responded
 Message 259 by NoNukes, posted 05-09-2012 11:15 PM Panda has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 245 of 300 (661740)
05-09-2012 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Panda
05-09-2012 5:40 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
So, when someone is imprisoned for tax avoidance, that is a breach of their human rights?

If I understand Locke's arguments correctly, tax avoidance is a violation of the social contract and can therefore result in imprisonment.

And when someone is imprisoned for trespassing, that is a breach of their human rights?

When you trespass you are violating the rights of others. The same for burglary. Animal cruelty is a new comer to the list, and is still controversial. That would probably need a thread of its own.

Or perhaps you would like to add some more criteria to your 'right of liberty'?

It appears that you missed the criteria in the previous post.

"The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Panda, posted 05-09-2012 5:40 PM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Panda, posted 05-09-2012 6:22 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 246 of 300 (661741)
05-09-2012 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Panda
05-09-2012 5:52 PM


Re: Questioning the line of reasoning...
If one person thinks that humans have a right to liberty and another person thinks that humans don't have a right to liberty, how do you determine which of them is correct?

You use empathy and reason to determine which of them is correct.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Panda, posted 05-09-2012 5:52 PM Panda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Rahvin, posted 05-09-2012 6:10 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31783
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 247 of 300 (661742)
05-09-2012 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Taq
05-09-2012 5:20 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
You have the right to not be tortured?

Is that so?

If you live in a State, society or culture where it is accepted by consensus or law that you have that right it MAY be true but that has certainly not always been true and is not always true today, even in States, societies and cultures where it is considered a right.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 5:20 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 248 of 300 (661744)
05-09-2012 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Taq
05-09-2012 5:56 PM


Re: Questioning the line of reasoning...
You use empathy and reason to determine which of them is correct.

What if the two have different feelings on the matter, ie, "empathy" tells each of them something different?

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Reset long signature to size=1 font.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 5:56 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2488 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 249 of 300 (661746)
05-09-2012 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Taq
05-09-2012 5:20 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
quote:
Enhanced interrogation techniques or alternative set of procedures are terms that describe a George W. Bush administration authorization and use of certain severe interrogation methods including hypothermia, stress positions and waterboarding. These techniques were used by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Department of Defense (DoD) in secret prisons, the Guantanamo Bay detention camps and Abu Ghraib on untold thousands of prisoners[1] after the September 11 attacks in 2001 including notably Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah and Mohammed al-Qahtani.

http://en.wikipedia.org/...Enhanced_interrogation_techniques

I may be a little slow but it seems to me that when your nations leaders allow certain forms or torture, then the people being tortured have had the right not to be tortured taken away.

How does a human right become inalienable? What is the criteria? If our leaders say they have a right to torture certain people then who is to say they are wrong. The UN?


"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
— Hunter S. Thompson

Ad astra per aspera

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 5:20 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 7:11 PM fearandloathing has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2056 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 250 of 300 (661748)
05-09-2012 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Taq
05-09-2012 5:53 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Taq writes:

"The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others"


I'll fix that for you:

Taq writes:

If I understand Locke's arguments correctly, tax avoidance is a violation of the social contract and can therefore result in imprisonment.


The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others, or broken an unspecified social contract.

Taq writes:

When you trespass you are violating the rights of others. The same for burglary.


The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others, or broken an unspecified social contract or violated other peoples' rights.

Taq writes:

Animal cruelty is a new comer to the list, and is still controversial. That would probably need a thread of its own.


The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others, or broken an unspecified social contract or violated other peoples' rights or do certain other things that don't break any of the previous rules but still appear to be enough to remove your right to liberty.

Sheeesh! Your right to liberty has so many caveats, it looks like a politician devised it.

Shall we keep going?
I can provide more breaches and you can add more criteria.
Eventually your right to liberty has been cut back until it barely applies to anyone.

So...

Taq writes:

Panda writes:

You continue to be unable to provide a single human right that is not situational, conditional and subjective.

I have supplied three: life, liberty, and property.

Well, all those conditions excludes liberty.
Let's look at property next...

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 5:53 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 6:53 PM Panda has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 251 of 300 (661756)
05-09-2012 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Panda
05-09-2012 6:22 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others, or broken an unspecified social contract.

Correct. The social contract is a system of government based on the liberties spelled out by Locke (life, liberty, and property). Violating the social contract is the same as violating someone's liberties.

Three human rights are liberty, life, and property. I describe liberty as doing what you want as long as you do not violate the rights of others. You then exclaim your confusion that someone can be thrown in jail for violating a person's rights of life, liberty, and property. Perhaps I am not explaining this in a clear manner? Why is there any confusion here?

The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others, or broken an unspecified social contract or violated other peoples' rights.

Yes. That is what I have said from the beginning. I have even quoted Locke speaking about the right to self defense.

Sheeesh! Your right to liberty has so many caveats, it looks like a politician devised it.

I never claimed that this is an easy subject. If this is too much for you to handle perhaps you should try another thread?

Well, all those conditions excludes liberty.

Nowhere have I defined liberty as the right to do whatever you want to whomever you please. You are trying to create a strawman version of human rights, and it appears that you are giving that strawman quite a beating.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Panda, posted 05-09-2012 6:22 PM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Panda, posted 05-09-2012 7:21 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 252 of 300 (661758)
05-09-2012 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by fearandloathing
05-09-2012 6:16 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
I may be a little slow but it seems to me that when your nations leaders allow certain forms or torture, then the people being tortured have had the right not to be tortured taken away.

When you torture someone you have violated their rights, not taken them away.

How does a human right become inalienable? What is the criteria?

The United Nations has a decent description of human rights here. What it boils down to is the idea that we are morally obligated, as moral agents, to better the human condition. We can determine for ourselves what causes us pain and suffering, such as enslavement or having your home taken from you without due cause. We can also determine that these same actions taken on others will cause pain and suffering. Therefore, we shouldn't do that to other people. It is their inherent right as fellow human beings to not suffer from the actions of other human beings.

Of course, the interactions in human societies are quite complex. It is difficult to ferret out specific human rights in very specific cases. This will always be a difficult determination, but the foundations of human rights are actually quite simple to understand, IMHO.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by fearandloathing, posted 05-09-2012 6:16 PM fearandloathing has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by fearandloathing, posted 05-09-2012 8:08 PM Taq has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2056 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 253 of 300 (661760)
05-09-2012 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Taq
05-09-2012 6:53 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Taq writes:

I never claimed that this is an easy subject.


Well, clearly you are struggling with it.

You claimed that the right to liberty was unconditional....which is shown to be very wrong:
The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others, or broken an unspecified social contract or violated other peoples' rights or do certain other things that don't break any of the previous rules but still appear to be enough to remove your right to liberty.

Taq writes:

Panda writes:

Taq writes:

Panda writes:

You continue to be unable to provide a single human right that is not situational, conditional and subjective.


I have supplied three: life, liberty, and property.

Well, all those conditions excludes liberty.

Nowhere have I defined liberty as the right to do whatever you want to whomever you please.

Fascinating.
Anyway, back to what I actually wrote:
All those conditions exclude liberty as an unconditional human right.

You have 'inalienable' rights being taken away.
You have 'unconditional' rights with numerous restrictions.
Look: if you don't know what a word means then stop using it.


Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 6:53 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 8:08 PM Panda has not yet responded

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2488 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 254 of 300 (661765)
05-09-2012 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Taq
05-09-2012 7:11 PM



It seems to me that until there is some global/universal agreement of what is and isn't a human right then we cannot say that it is inalienable. There are many countries that are not members of the UN, there are more countries who have no regard for the Geneva Convention.

This is a complicated subject.

In the world we live in today who is the authority?


"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
— Hunter S. Thompson

Ad astra per aspera

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 7:11 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 8:18 PM fearandloathing has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 255 of 300 (661766)
05-09-2012 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Panda
05-09-2012 7:21 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Well, clearly you are struggling with it.

Not as much as you are. I clearly stated liberty is doing what you please as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. You then tell me that imprisoning a tresspasser is taking away a person's liberty. I think we are talking about two different things.

The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others, or broken an unspecified social contract or violated other peoples' rights or do certain other things that don't break any of the previous rules but still appear to be enough to remove your right to liberty.

The right is never removed. You always have the right to stay out of prison as long as you do not interfere with the rights of others.

All those conditions exclude liberty as an unconditional human right.

No, they don't. They include prison time for violation of other people's rights. The right to not be imprisoned for minding your own business is not stripped away by any of those conditions. Nowhere have I claimed that you have the inherent right to stay out of prison for committing murder, trespass, or theft.

You have 'inalienable' rights being taken away.

Not in any of the situations you have described yet.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Panda, posted 05-09-2012 7:21 PM Panda has not yet responded

  
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