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Author | Topic: Is purposeless torture moral? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Evlreala
"From their perspective, hell is a moral punishment." Their perspective is demonstrably wrong.You should see how Christians have run from this post I wrote some time ago. Judgment and punishment go hand in hand. Our human laws have a form of punishment where the penalty is graduated to fit the crime. An eye for an eye type of justice.God‘s punishment seems to surpass this standard. The definition I am comparing here is the eternal fire and torture type of hell and I am not particularly interested in the myriad of other definitions and theories that some use to supplant this traditional view. To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer thesesimple question for yourself. 1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years? 2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression. Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent. 3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result? 4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose? Is hell a moral construct or not? Please explain your reasons and know that ---just because God created it ---does not explain your moral judgment. It is your view I seek and not God’s as no one can speak for God. RegardsDL Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Courts and laws are unrelated to morality except within the moral framework of the specific culture of that court.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Greatest I am writes:
I only have to "justify" the morality of my actions to myself. If the society I live in has different moral values than I do, I may or may not try to explain it to them.
How would you justify your action to the court that would charge you with being an accessory to rape?
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Evlreala Member (Idle past 3102 days) Posts: 88 From: Portland, OR United States of America Joined: |
Their perspective is demonstrably wrong. Not according to your framework. You provided the mechanism to determine what was morally good from morally bad, all I did was apply your mechanism to a given scenario. So.. Either, my reasoning was flawed (in which case I invite you to show me where and how). or.. Your mechanism is flawed.
You should see how Christians have run from this post I wrote some time ago. Relivance?
Judgment and punishment go hand in hand. Can you demonstrate this to be necessarily true?
Our human laws have a form of punishment where the penalty is graduated to fit the crime. An eye for an eye type of justice. Are you so sure about that? Do you speak on behalf of all human laws?
God‘s punishment seems to surpass this standard. What standard, where?
To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these simple question for yourself. Actually, first you must establish what criteria makes something morally good or morally evil, then you make a determination based on that criteria.
Is hell a moral construct or not? According to your moral paradigm, yes, it can be.
Please explain your reasons and know that ---just because God created it ---does not explain your moral judgment. It is your view I seek and not God’s as no one can speak for God. My views on the matter are irrelivent, were discussing your views. Do you wish to stick to the Code of Hammurabi, or are you ready to try another approach to your views on morality?
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Jar
"Courts and laws are unrelated to morality except within the moral framework of the specific culture of that court." LOL.Which says that courts and laws are within the moral framework of all cultures. RegardsDL
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Ringo
"I only have to "justify" the morality of my actions to myself. If the society I live in has different moral values than I do, I may or may not try to explain it to them." Care to attempt to to explain and justify your crime here?I eagerly want to see such an attempt. Before you do, note the first principle of morality. Jonathan Haidt: The moral roots of liberals and conservatives | TED Talk RegardsDL Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Evlreala
You, like the Christians I alluded to, have run from answering the questions posed and tried to deflect. RegardsDL
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Not really. It says that in those cultures that have courts or laws, the courts or laws will reflect the morals of that culture.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Evlreala Member (Idle past 3102 days) Posts: 88 From: Portland, OR United States of America Joined: |
You, like the Christians I alluded to, have run from answering the questions posed and tried to deflect. The one deflecting is you.Once again, this was your scenario and your moral paradigm, all I have done is applied one to the other and shown you how the result doesn't add up to your claims. Can you demonstrate where my reasoning is flawed? If you cannot and cannot come up with a better moral framework, then this topic becomes nothing more then one big argumentum ad ignorantiam. I have not answered your questions because they were a weak attempt to not address the issue that was raised and to deflect the bourdon of proof onto myself. Stones and glass houses and such... Oh, and you didn't allude to anyone, you quite clearly called attention to the Christians from your previous post directly. You still haven't addressed how that was relevent, or any of the questions and objections I've called to your attention. Let's not turn this into a game of chess with a pigeon, shall we?
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Evlreala Member (Idle past 3102 days) Posts: 88 From: Portland, OR United States of America Joined: |
Not to interject, but I've always understood the nature of law to pertain to the culture's ethics predominantly, I've not really considered morality much of a factor.
Do you by any chance know of a good reference on the topic? I admit, I'm fairly ignorant on the nature of law and I would be interested in educating myself.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I was using the terms 'ethics' and 'morality' (perhaps inappropriately) as somewhat synonymous. I suppose that 'morality' is a subset of ethics and more closely related to a particular set of religious beliefs as opposed to the broader term ethics.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Jar.
Ok. RegardsDL
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Evlreala
You have rejected my moral framework without refuting or answering the questions posed that created it so why should I come up with another while the first is sound FMPOV? RegardsDL
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Greatest I am writes:
What crime is that? Is it a crime not to resist crime?
Care to attempt to to explain and justify your crime here? Greatest I am writes:
Kindly tell us in your own words what the "first principle of morality" is.
Before you do, note the first principle of morality.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Greatest I am writes: If a man enters your home and rapes your wife, what will you do, offer your daughter for seconds. your reply:That might very well be the moral thing to do. How would you justify your action to the court that would charge you with being an accessory to rape? How would you explain such a (good) moral stance to your daughter? Morality is always relative. You just gotta be creative in some cases: Raper: "If I don't rape your daughter, then I'll push this button that will blow up the whole world." In that case, the moral action would be saving the world by letting him rape your daughter.
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