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Author Topic:   Problems with being an Atheist (or Evolutionist)
dwise1
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Posts: 5994
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 5 of 276 (490831)
12-08-2008 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
12-08-2008 10:37 AM


The only problem I can think of is not being able to damn someone to rot in Hell for eternity. No matter how they deserve it, like my ex.
Another problem might be being unable to do whatever I'd want, no matter how immoral, just so long as I could rationalize that I was serving God. But why would I want to be able to live like that, with no moral responsibility? With no concept of morality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 12-08-2008 10:37 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Stile, posted 12-09-2008 10:40 AM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 62 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 1:59 PM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 67 of 276 (538751)
12-09-2009 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Bolder-dash
12-09-2009 1:59 PM


If one is Christian, why should you have any morality? Why not just do whatever you want to and rationalize it as either following God's "absolute" laws (through reinterpretation, no matter how torturous), or that God's "absolute" laws somehow don't apply to you , or that you are somehow serving God by your misdeeds, or that being human you had stumbled as you inevitably will so you ask God for forgiveness each time and God, being a good little invisible friend, will always grant that forgiveness? That is, after all, what we see Christians doing constantly. And that last item (we inevitably stumble and must constantly seek God's forgiveness) is something that fundamentalists do teach.
Christianity does not teach nor promote morality, but rather mindless adherence to an arbitrary set of laws. There is no reason for Christians to develop any sense of right and wrong, but rather only mindless obediance to arbitrary rules in order to avoid God's punishment. There is no reason for Christians to develop any sense of responsibility for their own actions; two reasons: 1) they are only answerable to God and not to anybody else, and 2) if any harm is done by their blindly following God's rules, then God is responsible for that harm because He had made that rule.
How could a Christian have any morality? Or have any sense of personal responsibility for his own actions? I really can't understand that.
If one is truly atheist, why should you have any morality? Why not just do what is best for yourself, and those you love, and the heck with any others?
Is it just a practical consideration, that by being moral in your own mind, maybe its harder to get in trouble, legal or otherwise. Why have principal if you believe life is just a random mix of proteins? I really can't understand that.
Why should belief in the supernatural have any effect on one's morality? Unless, of course, one's beliefs in the supernatural allows one to belief he can escape the consequences of immorality or amorality. An atheist has no such legalistic loophole. An atheist must be responsible for his own actions and for the consequences of his actions; he cannot escape that and he has no delusions that he could. How could you assume that to not be the case?
Just like most everybody, atheists are members of society. We humans are social animals and are therefore also moral animals. Like all normal humans (hence excluding mental illnesses like psychopathy and sociopathy), we feel the need to get along with others and to cooperate with others in society towards common goals. This can indeed be seen, as you kind of alluded to, as a form of enlightened self-interest, because we and those we love do benefit from being members of society, so as we help (or avoid doing harm to) others we are benefitting society which in turn benefits us and ours.
Of course, being moral is not all thought out rationally. It's been bred into us. Learning right from wrong and joining into group activities is almost instinctual for us. So why should it be any less so for an atheist. If anything, it is less so for a Christian.
Why have principal if you believe life is just a random mix of proteins?
Now that makes absolutely no sense. What are you talking about? Why would an atheist believe "life is just a random mix of proteins"? Who does belief such a nonsensical statement ... besides Christians, of course.
In case you were attempting a misstatement of evolution, be advised that random mixes of proteins really don't have much at all to do with evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 1:59 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 73 of 276 (538763)
12-09-2009 5:55 PM


Back on Topic
{Posted as a General Reply for fear of incurring the Wrath of Mod {grin}}
A recurring problem atheists have concerns the wildly distorted and utterly false view that theists (primarily Christians) have of atheists and the bizaare statements that view causes those theists to make. And even more so the inappropriate, malicious, and vicious actions theists have taken and will take solely because of the distorted view that they hold.
Thank you, Bolder-dash, for presenting a living example of that wildly distorted view. Of course, I do realize that you got a lot of help from your religious community in forming that wildly distorted and utterly false view.
If you want to pursue the discussion of atheists' morality, there have been a number of threads where that's discussed.
Edited by dwise1, : added preface
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 76 of 276 (538778)
12-10-2009 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Perdition
12-09-2009 3:55 PM


Re: The end is the end, kinda sad eh
On the flip side, I've had people ask me, in all seriousness, why I don't believe in an afterlife if it makes me sad to think thee isn't one, and I can only answer, "Because my wanting it doesn't make it so. I wish I had enough money that I could quit work and explore the world. I wish no one had to suffer. I wish there was an afterlife where I could keep watch on the world. But every single one of these wishes has the exact same effect on reality, and I can't make myself believe in something."
I also do not believe in the supernatural nor in an afterlife. I don't absolutely deny the possibility; I just cannot give the ideas much credence.
As I have tried to deal with the sudden death of a member of my immediate family seven years ago, my counselor and friends had tried to get me to believe in an afterlife so that I could generate within myself the false hope of being with him again. Sorry, but such self-delusion is very difficult to achieve through conscious effort. I would always know that I was trying to fool myself, so I would not be able to. I think that someone even tried to convert me to Christianity so that I could believe in meeting him again in the afterlife, but since that theology would have him damned for eternity, the thought of conversion is made infinitely more repulsive.
Now, as I understand it, the reason why the Mormons are so keen on genealogy is because in their theology you can convert your ancestors posthumously, that religion would in this case have more appeal to me. Though I had to suffer through the results of their having taken over Boy Scouts of America (BSA), Inc, so becoming a Mormon is extremely low on my list -- I would much rather become a rabid fundamentalist than a Mormon; for one thing, if I were to become a fundamentalist, I would constantly take my fellow fundies to task most severely for relying on the lies and deceptions of "creation science". In fact, Romney was the first time that I would have let the candidate's religion be a deciding factor in rejecting him -- knowing how much the Mormons have screwed up Scouting in the USA, it's horrifying to think of how much a Mormon President could screw up this country.
But still, the bottom line is that since I do not believe in the supernatural, I would need to deceive myself in order to believe in the afterlife. I can't see how I could pull it off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Perdition, posted 12-09-2009 3:55 PM Perdition has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 77 of 276 (538779)
12-10-2009 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Bolder-dash
12-10-2009 1:52 AM


Re: If one really ponders...
I do realize that time-zone differences come into play here. You're undoubtedly starting your day whereas I'm staying up way too late, especially since I must get up even earlier tomorrow than usual. So this is based on a cursory reading of your very recent response, a more careful reading having to wait until I've had a night of sleep.
Herein we see a very common sentiment from atheists. That the "Christian" community has attacked them unfairly, and thus we see the moral superiority of the athiest.
Uh, no attempt was made to try to establish any moral superiority. Rather, my point was that Christian doctrine does not even promote any moral sense. An atheist must deal with reality, whereas the Christian only has what he's being taught by his religious leaders.
And, yes, Christians do attack atheists unfairly. All the time. Because they really have no idea what atheism is about.
Taken alongside his previous comments about Christians ...
OK, precisely which comments are you talking about? In this thread? In others? Please be specific. Otherwise, how could I possibly respond if I have no idea what you are talking about?
. . . or being able to escape the consequences of morality, it . . .
Sorry, but it's something that we repeatedly witness Christians doing. It's not my choice, but rather the Christians'. I cannot speak for why they persist in doing it; I can only observe them doing it and futilely asking them why.
. . . , it shows a clear picture of one believing that atheism is more palatable based on the distaste one has for their perception of a particular religion.
Honesty is much more palatble than lies. Honesty is much more palatable than deception. Since fundamentalist Christianity (which is a somewhat different beast than is "mainstream Christianity"; it is fundamentalist Christianity that employs "creation science" and other such fringe beliefs that places them on the fringe where they can only exist through lies and deceptions.
I have no problem with honest religions. What kind of religion is yours? Considering that you're keeping it secret in order to manufacture some kind of advantange. That reveals you as being deceptive and manipulative. You must immediately reveal it (as I will develop further below).
The problem with this (amongst other problems) is that I haven't even made ONE single reference to Christianity in my previous posts, nor have I professed anything about my own spiritual beliefs,
OK, so tell us here and now! Just what exactly is your religious position? If not Christian then exactly what?
Most of the grief that atheists get in the USA is from Christians, therefore, that is the very first source that we suspect of such grief that gets dished out to us. If you are not a Christian, then what exactly are you and why does that make you say false such things about atheists?
Please understand that I have been involved in the so-called "creation/evolution controvery" (so-called because it is almost purely a creationist fabrication) for about three decades now. I have seen your exact same protestation of "but I haven't even revealed my own personal religious leanings yet" several times in the past. In each and every other time that individual turned out to a fundamentalist Christian. So then, my friend, just what the frak are you?
... and most importantly nor have I made even one single assertion about any atheists morality
Uh, no! You have rather specifically indicated that atheists should not have any basis for morality. That is very directly and vehemently impugning us!
. . . -but have instead posed a question that based on an atheists belief that all of life is just a random occurrence of proteins, where do they believe their morality is inspired from.
But atheists do not in fact believe that "all of life is just a random occurrence of proteins". We do tend to accept evolution, but that is not by any stretch of the imagination a belief that "all of life is just a random occurrence of proteins".
So just where did you get that nonsense from? If nothing else, it demonstrates that you have absolutely no understanding about atheism, let alone evolution. Just exactly from where did you get your misunderstanding of atheism? Please identify your religious community! Failure to do so immediately will signal your intent to deceive us further.
That he would be so defensive and fabricate assertions about my own believes based on nothing ("I do realize that you got a lot of help from your religious community in forming that wildly distorted and utterly false view"-well, interesting that you do realize this, because I hadn't realized that my relgious community which doesn't exist, gives me false views that also don't exist!) shows a clear origin of his own stance-which is probably not unique only to this one atheist.
Again, we are many different cultures and many different political situations. I am an American who lives in the USA. You are in China who lives as ... what exactly? You have never told us that and so far want to keep that a secret from us! In the society of the USA, Christians have an inordinate amount of influence, to the degradation of atheists (the second most hated group in the USA; we used to be the most hated, but since 9/11 the Muslims have taken that slot, with the three most hated groups being Muslims, atheists, and Mormons, in that order). Furthermore, even though US Constitutional law forbids it, fundamentalists in the USA have been trying since the early 1980's to secure more political power for themselves. And most of the attacks against atheists come from Christians. Including attacks exactly identical to your own postings In the USA, we have a saying: "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, then it's a duck! You have so far looked, walked, and sounded like a Christian. So then if you are not a Christian, then just what the frak are you? Immediate disclosure is imperative. Failure to answer that question immediately will signal you as a liar and a deceiver.
Also, further discussion of atheism and morality needs to be moved to another thread.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by dwise1, : Oops, wrong button
Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-10-2009 1:52 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 176 of 276 (581441)
09-15-2010 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
09-15-2010 7:43 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
I am not going to reply to everyone individually. I see no need for you people to repeat answers. I am well aware of the atheists stance on "the lack of belief". However, atheism by definition is not someone who doesn't believe in something. Atheism, in a narrow sense is specifically the position that there are no deities. That is a belief. You cannot dis-prove God's existence, so you believe there are no gods. Don't be hypocrites.
We're not being hypocrites. We're being completely honest with you. You are the one playing word games. Atheists believe many different things and even have a wide range of beliefs regarding the gods. The only thing that atheists have in common with each other is that they do not accept the god-stories of theists; they do not believe that you possess the truth. By applying an over-restrictive and artificially narrow definition, you only succeed in eliminating vast numbers of atheist by redefining them through word-magic -- but you only eliminated us in your own mind; we still exist and we still are atheists.
And the second thing that atheists have in common with each other is that theists hate us and believe in their profound ignorance that they know infinitely better that we know ourselves what we think and what we believe.
... , so you believe there are no gods.
Au contraire! Of course the gods exist. They are human inventions devised to attempt to explain the inexplicable. The same as the supernatural.
Now, even if the supernatural were to exist, how could any human be able to determine in any degree of detail anything about it? And even if supernatural entities were to exist, how could any human be able to determine in any degree of detail anything about it? And even if some supernatural entity were to exist that could in any manner be considered a god, how could any human be able to determine in any degree of detail anything about it?
So when theists trot out their detailed pronouncements about the nature of their god(s) and the wishes and desires of their god(s) and what their god(s) have planned for us and exactly what their god(s) pronouncements mean, how are we to believe that those stories are all true? That all those fallible humans got every single detail right? Let's face it, even if ancient man had gotten a glimpse of such a "Supreme Being", how could the resultant highly detailed theology be completely correct?
We do not accept your theology. Period. That is all that we all have in common. The rest of what we think and believe is up to each individual and varies from one individual atheist to another. For example, I just gave you a description of how I view matters. Maybe some atheists also viewed it that way, and some didn't but can agree with me, and some don't agree with me.
You cannot dictate to us what we think and believe because you have no idea what each one of us actually thinks or believes. So please stop trying.
frako, I would love to respond to you, but you are way off the beaten path, and your spelling sucks.
He is not a native English speaker. How well do you write in his own native language?
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 09-15-2010 7:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2010 8:34 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
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