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Author Topic:   Problems with being an Atheist (or Evolutionist)
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1586 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 174 of 276 (581370)
09-15-2010 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
09-15-2010 7:43 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
You cannot dis-prove God's existence
You can prove the nonexistence of God by the same means you can prove the nonexistence of anything else that doesn't exist, once it's been established what we mean when we say "God".
There are still plenty of things yet to be discovered, and they all exist.
How do you know? Maybe the ones you think exist, don't. Maybe the undiscovered things you think don't exist - like the proof of evolution that would instantly convince every creationist - actually do exist. Until there's evidence for those things, speculation or assumption about their properties or existence is going to be necessarily and inherently erroneous.
I would have no way of detecting that god, since we cannot detect things that do not exist in our dimension
How do you propose to detect, as opposed to just assuming, that gods are extradimensional?
He would always leave room open for further interpretation. At best he would be agnostic.
But agnostics are atheists, and atheists are not always people who insist that they are 100% certain that there is absolutely nothing that could be called a "god." Many atheists are simply people who believe that the evidence supports the provisional conclusion, subject to modification in the face of future evidence (like any scientific conclusion).
Why couldn't someone who lives as if there is no God, says that in all likelihood there is no God, and really believes the evidence as it is understood at this moment really supports the nonexistence of God, call themselves an "atheist"? Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Even Mother Theresa wasn't 100% sure of the existence of God but she got to call herself a "Christian." If we're suddenly restricting membership only to the 100% convinced let's apply that across the board, ok? No double standards, please.
No one is actually going around telling adults that Santa Claus does indeed exist.
Except of course the editors of the New York Sun:
quote:
Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.
Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.
Funny, I think I heard Francis Collins say the same thing, once, only instead of "Santa Claus" he said "Jesus Christ." It's funny how the arguments are completely applicable either way.
I am sick and tired of people using them as examples.
Then learn to refute it, Rat. Both Santa Claus and Jesus Christ are myths taught to children. The only difference is that people are expected to grow out of Santa Claus. They should be expected to grow out of Jesus Christ.
Because of that, and the way atheist come across, atheist seem like nothing more than pissed off believers, who actually know God exists in their hearts, and they just want to deny Him so they can live by their own rules.
That's never made any sense, especially given than Christianity doesn't prevent you from living by your own rules. I mean, look at Ted Haggard or the Republican caucus. Christianity is absolutely no obstacle to using drugs, cheating on your wife, self-dealing, robbery, corruption, or any other vice. Indeed, most Christians simply convince themselves "it's what God wants me to do" and off they go, cheating and robbing people.
The notion that somehow Christianity is able to restrain people's immoral impulses should have evaporated during the first Catholic sexual abuse scandal, but here we are, learning about decades of sex abuse by Christianity's most organized cabal of so-called holy men. Surely if Christianity is able to cockblock anybody it would be the people most steeped in it? The men whose every waking hour is supposed to be given over to service of the Lord? Funny how the vaunted power of Christianity to prevent people from "living by their own rules" couldn't protect hundreds of Irish orphans from being raped.
I agree with you - it's just people being people. Since Christianity can't stop people from being people, it's absurd to suggest that atheists deny God so they can do whatever they want. Belief in God has never been able to stop people from doing what they want, so why go to all the trouble of being an atheist? The very existence of atheists, once again, proves you wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 09-15-2010 7:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Nij, posted 09-15-2010 10:50 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 186 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2010 8:27 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1586 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 182 of 276 (581669)
09-16-2010 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Nij
09-15-2010 10:50 PM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
Agnostics are people who don't think it's possible to know for sure.
To be fair, agnostics are people who believe it's not possible to know at all. Hardly anybody at all - especially not an atheist - is 100% no-doubt sure about anything. How could we be, especially the science-minded atheists, who especially understand that knowledge is provisional?
There really aren't atheists who are 100% no-doubt sure about the non-existence of "God", because that term can refer to anything at all. Like me, like Dawkins, like Hitchens, like Harris, and like the rest of the so-called "New Atheists", they believe that there's substantial evidence against the existence of many notions called "God", most especially the notions common to the majority of the religious. Evidence that supports the provisional conclusion of the non-existence of any god.
Agnostics are either people who believe exactly the above but don't have the courage to "come out" as atheists for whatever reason, or people who believe it's not possible for that evidence to exist. Either way, agnosticism really isn't a tenable intellectual position. Recognizing the provisional nature of knowledge doesn't make you an "agnostic", that would be saying that you can't know anything at all unless you know it for sure. That's not a standard of evidence that is applied to any other area of inquiry, to say the least. Recognizing the provisional nature of knowledge doesn't make you an agnostic, it makes you a reasonable person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Nij, posted 09-15-2010 10:50 PM Nij has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1586 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 205 of 276 (582126)
09-19-2010 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by riVeRraT
09-19-2010 8:27 PM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
But Jesus Christ is.
How so? Jesus Christ didn't do anything to stop Ted Haggard. If I want to snort a bunch of coke, how exactly is "Jesus Christ" going to stop me?
He's not, is he? So in what sense is he an obstacle? I'm not saying that Christianity, or Christ, isn't suggesting that I not use drugs (although, I'm having a hard time finding "thy shall not snort" in my copy of the Bible), I'm simply saying that they present no real obstacle to doing so. Religion can't make you do the right thing, they can just try to talk you into doing the right thing. Or the wrong thing.
But anybody can do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2010 8:27 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by riVeRraT, posted 09-20-2010 1:32 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1586 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 249 of 276 (586818)
10-15-2010 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by nator
10-14-2010 7:53 PM


You can disprove a positive claim that something exists, but you can't prove the claim of the nonexistence of something.
Then how do you know when to make a beer run?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by nator, posted 10-14-2010 7:53 PM nator has not replied

  
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