Problems with being an Atheist (or Evolutionist)

Hi Stile I agree 100% with your points and the above conclusion.I don't know if I've missed the flow of the preceding argument that was on a different thread, but I would always add the following points in these arguments about good and evil:- Humans are social species that benefit from cooperting with each other. (We are not unique in this respect: individuals in many if not most other species also benefit from cooperating with each other.) In my opinion, in humans this beneficial cooperation is the foundation of moral behaviour, and the concept of good and evil.- If you accept the Theory of Evolution, there is little doubt that individuals that cooperate well together will be more likely to survive and produce similar offspring. Hence, we have formed an instinctive empathy for others. It's why we feel sad if we see others in trouble. This may seem a little strange in the global village that we live in today, where we may feel sad for someone we don't even know, but the instinct was formed in a time when we lived in small communities where we would be closely related to most of the people we ever met.- At a more objective level, we can also make a rational decision to be helpful to others. Societies that are the most peaceful and egalitarian, and which treat individuals with respect, tend to be the most prosperous.What goes around comes around. The Golden Rule, etc. And there shouldn't be any evolutionary pressure on us to lose our empathy even in the modern world. The consequences of being unselfish are generally still advantageous.So, apart from the fact that there is no logical reason for atheists to automatically be evil, there IS a logical reason for most people, whatever their creed, to be good.

Some interesting points. I'm not sure I agree with everything you say about honour, etc. Bit busy now, so I'll sleep on it and get back to you.

I'm beginning to learn that!(Still sleeping on it.)

Thanks for your comments. It's a fascinating subject: the fine line that exists between individual competitiveness and social cooperation. It's also incredibly complex. I'd like to start reading up on this topic. I've been thinking about it a lot the last few days in order to answer Stile's point about "honour". I'm not quite there yet!

I once knew a girl like that. And I thought she was very very bad.Who am I kidding?

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you on this point. To be honest I still haven't settled my mind on the issue, so like you I'm talking out loud to some extent. I just thought I'd at least let you have my initital thoughts."Honour" is an interesting concept. I think that a person can only be "honourable" if others are aware of them and their actions. Otherwise there would be nothing to honour. If a person is considered honourable it means that others hold them in high esteem. That implies that a person who deliberately acts in what they think is an honourable manner is hoping to receive appreciation from others. So anyone who sets out to be a person of honour is in fact looking to enhance their social status. I.E. They are doing it for themselves. That makes honourable a paradoxical term: most of us instinctively think of an honourable act as being an unselfish one, whereas the person in question is usually acting at least in part for their own benefit by seeking the approval of others (or at least the potential approval of others if they were ever to notice the action).Does that make any sense?That would imply that the person who makes the most objective and unselfish decisions would have to act purely on what they think is the right decision, completely regardless of what anyone else would think.I'm finding it impossible, though, to think of what a "right" decision is, if it is not one that would at least potentially receive the approval of others.This brings me back to my earlier point that morality is all about how we cooperate with each other - for mutual benefit. A truly objective moral decision doesn't seem possible to me. So you may well be right that only subjective decisions can be honourable, although I think we may be coming at it from different angles.I'll ponder it some more!

And I'll ponder it some more...I hope to have this whole issue of morality/honour/good/bad completely tied up very soon - may not be before Christmas though!