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Author Topic:   Problems with being an Atheist (or Evolutionist)
Panda
Member (Idle past 3831 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 252 of 276 (587791)
10-20-2010 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Damouse
10-20-2010 7:18 PM


Damouse writes:
You are arguing silly semantics. An atheist holds to the belief that theistic conclusions are wrong, and therefor holds to the belief that there is no god. The definition does not detail this, but this must follow from the definition.
You cannot have an opinion about something and not have a belief about it.
quote:
atheism
   /ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
—noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
or
quote:
Atheism, defined most inclusively, is the absence of belief in the existence of any deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In its narrowest sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.
link
Trying to find a consensus regarding the meaning of 'atheist' is easier said than done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Damouse, posted 10-20-2010 7:18 PM Damouse has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Damouse, posted 10-20-2010 8:20 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3831 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 254 of 276 (587797)
10-20-2010 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Damouse
10-20-2010 8:20 PM


Damouse writes:
Taking the position that there are no deities is a belief.
I suggest you watch Hooah's video (in Message 1) again.
Since you replied to that post with...
quote:
One of the best statements of belief i may have ever heard.
...I guess that you didn't understand it.
It very clearly explains the position of atheism not being a belief.
e.g. As an atheist: gods do not feature amongst the things I believe.
I look at my beliefs, and I see nothing relating to gods.
Damouse writes:
I again state that this a silly conversation about semantics. An atheist knows what he or she believes, or what he or she does not believe in. What is the point of picking straws? Its a worthless point to quibble over in the grand argument.
Then why are you trying to tell atheists what they believe?
You are the one making the claim that atheists believe that god doesn't exist.
If the point is not important to you, then stop argueing it.
I, personally, feel the distinction is important enough to require a response to claims of the contrary.
I am making the point that my atheism is not a belief.
Being an atheist does not require a belief in a lack of gods - it requires a lack of belief in gods.
This is also in agreement with what Rrhain (and others) are saying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Damouse, posted 10-20-2010 8:20 PM Damouse has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Damouse, posted 10-20-2010 9:33 PM Panda has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3831 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 265 of 276 (587880)
10-21-2010 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Damouse
10-21-2010 1:58 AM


Damouse writes:
Im not trying to be radical or abrasive, and i feel like my comments are being received as such. Apologies if they came out like that.
It is very hard to communicate (via text) with any kind of assurity without appearing abrasive, etc. So my default position is to expect the best intentions from people.
I will skip over most of the points in your reply, as I feel that they have been accurately expanded upon by others. I think it has been discussed in other threads too.
(I would also like to avoid giving you the feeling that you are being outnumbered.)
Instead I would like to focus on an aside you made:
Damouse writes:
If a theist were to challenge either of us based on that, our conversation with him/her would have no impact on our belief or our current religious debate. It is, again, a semantic argument.
This was touched upon in Hooah's video.
I think many religious people think atheism is a belief because that is how their mind works. They are looking at an atheist's world from a theist's PoV. This is not the best way to understand the other side of the discussion.
There is also the aspect of:
quote:
When religious theists attack atheism, they prefer to attack strong atheism, the denial of the existence of gods, because it's a positive claim which can be evaluated and critiqued. They don't like dealing with weak atheism, the absence of belief in gods, because they forces them to defend and support their own claims. (Link)
If an atheist says:
"You can't prove there is a god. Why do you believe he exists?",
then a theist can reply:
"You can't prove there is NOT a god. Why do believe he doesn't exist?"
This reply only works if atheism is a belief.
Also, belief is often incorrectly conflated with faith.
Atheists have no belief in god => Athiests believe god doesn't exist => Athiests have faith that god doesn't exist => Athiests have faith in something without evidence.
"We've won!" cries the equivocating thiest.
Edited by Panda, : ytpo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Damouse, posted 10-21-2010 1:58 AM Damouse has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3831 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 272 of 276 (590976)
11-11-2010 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Tram law
11-11-2010 12:03 AM


Tram law writes:
So that means they have no real reason to evangelize and go out to convert people.
It seems like you have presented a false dichotomy: Atheist or belief in the god.
Even if atheism didn't exist, then there would still be plenty of people that needed converting (firstly) to a particular god and then (secondly) to a particular 'flavour' of worship.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Tram law, posted 11-11-2010 12:03 AM Tram law has not replied

  
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