Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-18-2019 10:44 AM
41 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 854,004 Year: 9,040/19,786 Month: 1,462/2,119 Week: 222/576 Day: 25/98 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1415161718
19
Author Topic:   Problems with being an Atheist (or Evolutionist)
Tram law
Member (Idle past 2869 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 271 of 276 (590968)
11-11-2010 12:03 AM


Well, I had a realization the other day.

Some theists believe that atheism is impossible.

But in thinking about this I've come to a realization. This position actually undermines theism.

Theism has a need to make everybody convert and make everybody the same.

And the belief of atheism is impossible undermines this.

Because if atheism is impossible, then that means nobody has a lack of belief in God.

So that means we're saved, depending on whether you believe if people are saved by faith alone and do not need to do good works to keep your salvation.

And since we all believe in God, then that means there is no need to convert a person to theism, because we are all theists.

So that means they have no real reason to evangelize and go out to convert people.

Unless of course we must all worship God in one single way and have one single dogma for every single person on the face of this planet.

They say the devil is in the details.

But if you think about it, saying atheism is a lie or is impossible does actually undermine theism's need to go out and convert people.


Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Panda, posted 11-11-2010 3:50 AM Tram law has not yet responded
 Message 273 by frako, posted 11-11-2010 4:54 AM Tram law has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1877 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 272 of 276 (590976)
11-11-2010 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Tram law
11-11-2010 12:03 AM


Tram law writes:

So that means they have no real reason to evangelize and go out to convert people.


It seems like you have presented a false dichotomy: Atheist or belief in the god.
Even if atheism didn't exist, then there would still be plenty of people that needed converting (firstly) to a particular god and then (secondly) to a particular 'flavour' of worship.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Tram law, posted 11-11-2010 12:03 AM Tram law has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 273 of 276 (590979)
11-11-2010 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Tram law
11-11-2010 12:03 AM


And since we all believe in God, then that means there is no need to convert a person to theism, because we are all theists.

Yes we all alredy believe in the almighty Frako, now bow down and worship me or i will slaughter you whit fireballs from my eyes and lightning from my ass.

Some theists believe that atheism is impossible.

Theists believe in all sorts of crap that does not mean it is true. But since you think all of us atheists are satan worsheping liars it is hard to take our word for it that we LACK THE BELIEF IN A DEITY ANY DEITY.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Tram law, posted 11-11-2010 12:03 AM Tram law has not yet responded

    
Tram law
Member (Idle past 2869 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 274 of 276 (591036)
11-11-2010 12:35 PM


Frako, please reread the post.

Your conclusions are wrong.

As I am an atheist. I am not a theist.


  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3507
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


(4)
Message 276 of 276 (675254)
10-09-2012 1:01 PM


More Questions for the Atheist
Phat writes:

Why is life not always fair? Shouldn't there be justice? Why are humans so intrinsically selfish? If a man does whats good and finds others cheating or being unfairly prosperous, how can we live with the unfairness?
I find that I want someone in charge to essentially favor me and give me an equalizing edge.

Message 96 from Can You define God?

Does anyone have answers for these questions?
Must all questions have answers?

  • Why is life not always fair
    Because life is full of people who all have free will. Or, at least, enough of an illusion of free will to give us an illusion of 'fairness.'
    If you're reading this, my first comment is... yes, it is unfair to those that suffer that you have such a life where you're able to look up junk like this on the internet. You have it so bad. "Fair" is based on perspective. If you think your life is unfair, you're likely not considering those beneath you and only those you think are above you.

    But, more seriously, life is unfair because mean people exist.

  • Shouldn't there be justice?
    No.
    If we want to build a society so we can live and prosper in a safe, healthy environment. Then yes. But this is a choice, not some sort of intrinsic virtue. Because building and living within such a society is a choice (for those lucky enough to have the option), we must all work at helping justice along in our society. We must be good people to limit the problems. We must use the existing systems we've developed to deal with the issues. We must remain vigilant in protecting and advancing those systems. It is up to us, and no one else.
    Justice is not some sort of god-given right. If it were, then all the good people would be happy and ridiculously evil things like the black-market sex-slave industry would not exist. Obviously, Justice is only something we've created. And it is a wondrous thing. But we cannot slack-off and "leave it to God" to figure out. We are responsible and if we want Justice than we must participate and focus on our social tools.

  • Why are humans so intrinsically selfish?
    Not sure if they are. But I'll reframe the question to be: Why do humans seem so intrinsically selfish?
    The cop-out answer - They likely aren't, and you're just a victim of your own confirmation bias. Stop playing the the-grass-is-always-greener-on-the-other-side game and take some responsibility. Start with a good, thorough, honest inventory of what you have. Then make realistic steps from there to improve to where you'd like to be. Be patient, it's a slow process. And remember it's not a race against everyone else, it's only a game you play against yourself. If you think you're losing, then you're playing it wrong.

    The serious answer - We humans are competitive. Along with that comes a motivation to get whatever we can out of whatever's available. This is an instict. To overcome our instincts, we need to use our intelligence. That's what it's there for. We can decide to eat healthy when we're hungry, we can decide to be understanding and forgiving when an accident occurs and we're hurt, and we can decide to override our competitive instincts with a more beneficial lifestyle focus.

  • If a man does whats good and finds others cheating or being unfairly prosperous, how can we live with the unfairness?
    Two levels to this:
    Level 1 - The 'unfairness' is large, like stealing money from a bank or killing to get ahead or something. That's what police and the other institutions are for, use them.
    Level 2 - The 'unfairness' is not governed by existing laws. Use your intelligence. It is a basic human instinct to see something someone else has and 'want' it for ourselves, or to feel upset when we see someone get more in return for less (or equal) investment that we put in. But, these are instincts and we have intelligence to overcome them.
    Think about all the things you have that others don't.
    Think about if you'd actually be okay living with the decision of the "cheater" the rest of your life... if 'yes' then you have other issues (see other Stile threads about morality for more information, like this one: Why It Is Right To Do Good To Others)
    Think about if it "really matters" or not.
    Yes it hurts, and yes it feels bad to feel cheated or beaten or missing out on something... but remember that they are instinctual feelings and can be dealt with by using our intelligence.
    If you are unable to deal with the feelings, it is merely a matter of education. That's what therapists and psychiatrists are there for. They are trained to help educate you on how to use your intelligence to deal with your feelings. Some issues can be physical ailments (incorrect levels of this or that chemical in your system) and there can be ways to help deal with that as well.
    Your intelligence is your most powerful weapon in these matters. With enough education, imagination and willingness to try... I have faith that it is capable of dealing with any issue.

    Of course, that's a rather general response. But the question itself is rather general. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific concerns you'd like to try and deal with.

  • I find that I want someone in charge to essentially favor me and give me an equalizing edge.
    Me too. I also want a new car where I never have to pay for oil changes.
    Again, this is your intelligence coming up with a way to try and help you deal with the issues you're facing (unfairness, feeling left behind...). Sometimes I bet this idea of Someone favouring you helps a lot. Other times (most times I'm willing to bet?) it's not too much help. But it does help somewhat... and that's without you even trying to use your intelligence... it did that all on it's own! Think about the potential you could have if you purposefully focus your intelligence into working on a solution!
    Maybe it will only help slightly more, maybe there is no solution and we need to work on using our intelligence to deal with acceptance rather than superiority.
    But how will we know if we don't try?

    Your intelligence and imagination are awesome weapons against instinctual behaviour. I suggest you use them. Many, many people have gone their entire lives without using their intelligence to overcome their instincts. Seems like a waste of a very nice brain, if you ask me.

    Edited by Stile, : Added cool little bullet-things to the points being discussed. Saw Phat using them and didn't know what they were at first... but I think they're cool. And... Yo' mamma.


        
  • RewPrev1
    ...
    1415161718
    19
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019