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Author Topic:   Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 276 (660351)
12-12-2011 11:22 AM


An interesting article:
Identical twin boys, one transgender become brother and sister - The Boston Globe
quote:
Led by the child who simply knew
The twin boys were identical in every way but one. Wyatt was a girl to the core, and now lives as one, with the help of a brave, loving family and a path-breaking doctor’s care.
Jonas and Wyatt Maines were born identical twins, but from the start each had a distinct personality.
‘Wyatt needs hair accessories, clothes, shoes . . . likes to wear bikinis, high heels, mini-skirts.’
Jonas was all boy. He loved Spiderman, action figures, pirates, and swords.
Wyatt favored pink tutus and beads. At 4, he insisted on a Barbie birthday cake and had a thing for mermaids. On Halloween, Jonas was Buzz Lightyear. Wyatt wanted to be a princess; his mother compromised on a prince costume.
Once, when Wyatt appeared in a sequin shirt and his mother’s heels, his father said: You don’t want to wear that.’’
Yes, I do,’’ Wyatt replied.
Dad, you might as well face it,’’ Wayne recalls Jonas saying. You have a son and a daughter.’’
That early declaration marked, as much as any one moment could, the beginning of a journey that few have taken, one the Maineses themselves couldn’t have imagined until it was theirs. The process of remaking a family of identical twin boys into a family with one boy and one girl has been heartbreaking and harrowing and, in the end, inspiring - a lesson in the courage of a child, a child who led them, and in the transformational power of love.
Wayne and Kelly Maines have struggled to know whether they are doing the right things for their children, especially for Wyatt, who now goes by the name Nicole. Was he merely expressing a softer side of his personality, or was he really what he kept saying: a girl in a boy’s body? Was he exhibiting early signs that he might be gay?Was it even possible, at such a young age, to determine what exactly was going on?
We can rule out genetics.
We can rule out upbringing.
We can rule out "choice".
What's left is fetal development - the process that builds a fetus from the genetic recipe - and a mutation in the progress of that development in one fetus.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-19-2012 1:30 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 6 by Panda, posted 04-24-2012 10:05 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 7 by Taz, posted 04-25-2012 1:18 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 12 by nwr, posted 04-25-2012 9:25 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 14 by Dr Jack, posted 04-25-2012 11:48 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 04-26-2012 12:29 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 276 (660353)
04-19-2012 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
04-19-2012 1:30 AM


Re: Bumping a lost PNT
perhaps in coffee house?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-19-2012 1:30 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5 of 276 (660360)
04-24-2012 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Adminnemooseus
04-24-2012 8:54 PM


thanks
Now we can see if this takes off

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-24-2012 8:54 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 276 (660384)
04-25-2012 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Panda
04-24-2012 10:05 PM


Hi Panda,
RAZD writes:
We can rule out genetics.
Can we?
quote:
Monozygotic twins are genetically nearly identical...Wiki
Therefore, identical twins are not completely genetically identical.
Could they be so different as to cause one twin to by trans-gender? I don't know.
But they are not genetically identical, so why should we exclude genetics?
There are plenty of studies on genetic\developmental differences in twins (google, birth defects among twins, scholarly articles)
Twins, triplets have greater chance of birth defects
quote:
The same team of researchers, from UF's Maternal Child Health Education Research and Data Center, studied 4,768 pairs of opposite-sex twins and found that boys had a 29 percent higher risk for birth defects than girls. This could be because boys tend to develop at a slower pace, leaving a little more time for potential problems to arise, according to findings published this month in Birth Defects Research (Part A): Clinical and Molecular Teratology.
They say developmental effects rather than genetic. Even when they know they have genetic differences (MF twins).
RAZD writes:
We can rule out upbringing.
To expect 2 children to have the same up-bringing (because they are twins) is overly simplistic.
Twins are not actually physically joined.
An individual twin experiences a different life to his brother.
These different experiences lead to different behaviour.
Could certain events in a life lead to gender confusion? I don't know.
But I see no reason to exclude the possibility that they could.
In this specific case the family says the differences started too soon for them to have significantly different experiences.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Panda, posted 04-24-2012 10:05 PM Panda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by caffeine, posted 04-27-2012 4:04 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 10 of 276 (660387)
04-25-2012 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Taz
04-25-2012 1:18 AM


Hi Taz,
Why can't it be a combination of those factors?
Affecting one and not the other?
Human sexuality, like all other human traits, are influenced by a combination of genetic factors, environmental factors, hormonal factors, and zeus knows what else.
Hormones are part of the environmental factors during gestation, as is zeus.
Now, if we were to talk about what rights should these people have because of their sexuality, I say choice or not has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. It shouldn't even be part of the debate, that whether a person can choose to be gay or not. ...
And I agree that it has nothing to do with individual rights. But this set of twins shows that the behavior patterns started at a significantly younger age than sexual development.
... So what if tomorrow I choose to be gay and the next day I choose to be straight?
Have you actually tried it? Curiously, I did when I was young and adventurous (free love hippy days), and it didn't work, even in mixed company. From my, admittedly anecdotal experiences, I conclude that one can only choose whether to express or repress the sexuality that one has.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Taz, posted 04-25-2012 1:18 AM Taz has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 11 of 276 (660389)
04-25-2012 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tangle
04-25-2012 3:01 AM


Hi Tangle,
I've been reading a little about phenotypic plasticity lately, a trait found in all organisms but spectacularly in insects and plants. It means that how an individual's phenotype (ie physical form) is created from its genotype (ie its DNA) depends on many environmental and other factors.
What other factors are there? I see environmental rather broadly (hormones and chemicals, temperatures, nutrients, etc), and we are talking about behavioral traits showing up rather soon after birth.
So it is entirely possible that a twin can be different - in fact all identical twins ARE different despite having identical genotypes - as an obvious example, they have different fingerprints, but there are always other subtle differences that enable family members to tell them apart.
Implying that these are developmental differences rather than genetic differences. This would be good reason for random patterns in fingerprints for instance rather than family similarities.
So, to take a giant and heroic leap in logic, perhaps we should now be looking for a difference in the very early upbringing or even birth of these two children that might have caused a difference in gene expression.
That is where I go on this one: developmental differences in when gene expression is keyed to occur. This is also consilient with the twin study cited above on birth defects.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tangle, posted 04-25-2012 3:01 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Tangle, posted 04-25-2012 10:20 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 167 of 276 (663067)
05-21-2012 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Straggler
05-21-2012 5:46 AM


Re: Identity
Hi Straggler,
Ringp writes:
Is there such a thing as a white man trapped in a black man's body? Would race reassignment surgery be the solution?
That is an interesting question. Has there ever been a case of this?
Michael Jackson?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Straggler, posted 05-21-2012 5:46 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Straggler, posted 05-21-2012 10:24 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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