Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice

I had never heard of BIID before. From your link: I have to admit BIID does seem like something that is comparable to sexual re-assignment in the context of this debate.I suppose if it genuinely does solve a problem for the individual in question then I am not against either removing limbs or penises in principle.But if the issue is a mental one then psychological treatment seems preferable just because the physical route is so drastic and one-way.I wonder what the evidence says about whether or not the lives of people who do have such surgery improve or not. I suppose that should ultimately be the determining factor. What is most liley to work for the person in question.

Here is part of what you yourself quoted: So the facts you posted seem to support transgender surgery in some cases and purely psychological treatments for others.So the question becomes one of identifying which patients are best treated by which method (rather than simply opposing transgender surgery for anyone).Right?Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

I'm ill and bored and you entertain me. The quotes you yourself have supplied seem to suggest that in most cases it hasn't helped but that in a minority of cases it has.So the question becomes one of identifying which patients are best treated by which method (rather than simply opposing transgender surgery for anyone).Right?I'm simply trying to find out if you are just making a blanket objection or if you accept (as per the findings in your own quotes) that in some cases surgery can be successful and is therefore a legitimate course of action in these cases.

Of course. But meant in the nicest way possible. So if further research leads to the conclusion that surgery can be demonstrated to be successful in some cases you would support surgery in those cases. Right?This should be about what works for the individual shouldn't it? It shouldn't be about whether you or I can conceive of a situation where we would want our dicks surgically removed. Fair enough. Those who made that claim should present those case studies. I fear that until we understand the human brain a lot better than we do now all we are going to get on these sorts of subjects is "conflicting views" and lots of prejudiced assertions.

Like I said to CS I don't have any objection in principle.On the basis of the evidence it seems unlikely to have the desired effect. But it might do in some cases.So I would suggest that surgery should be seen as a last resort and only contemplated after other options have been exhausted and after making absolutely sure that the person in question knows all the risks and issues that the evidence brings to light.

A doctor, a psychologist and the individual in question ALL need to be thoroughly involved in the decision.As I understand it gender re-assignment surgery isn't done lightly. It involves all the expertise the medical profession can muster and some fairly stringent requirements of the patient in order to prove their seriousness.What we need here is more knowledge about the condition and what works and what doesn't. I don't think anyone is suggesting that simply rocking up and requesting that ones penis is removed, because that is what the individual in question has decided, should be considered a viable option.The question is whether or not such surgery is ever justified. Do you accept that in some cases it is justified? Or not?

Only the individual in question knows how desperate they are. You can't seriously be suggesting that the decision as to whether to surgically remove someones genitals or not be taken independently of the person in question. Did you mean "No not at all"...? If all other currently available alternatives have been considered, the patient is fully aware of the risks, fully aware of the failure rate and yet still wants to go ahead because they feel that they just cannot go on in life as things are - I don't see any reason to deny them the opportunity to try something that might work. As your link writes:

quote:

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While sex reassignment surgery has definite medical-surgical and psychological limitations, there is insufficient evidence to warrant its termination. In deed, there is evidence suggesting that some gender dysphoric patients benefit primarily from sex reassignment surgery (reference 12 and an unpublished study by S. Satterfield).

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If the patient is reaching life threatening desperation levels then holding off on surgery may not be the best course of action. Whilst I agree with you about the need for more evidence I don't think there is sufficient evidence to warrant its termination. Some evidence that this surgery does actually have a positive outcome has been noticeably absent from this thread. I'll grant you that. The closest we have are some of the quotes you provided.

I think it is valid to point out that if things can't actually get any worse for someone (e.g. they are going to commit suicide because they cannot live in the body they have) then doing something that might work doesn't seem unreasonable.In such a case isn't it worth a shot?

If, after extensive psychiatric and psychological investigation, giving them the freedom to wear an eye-patch and call themself Napoleaon despite being wholly cogniscent of the fact that they are not the 18th century leader of France alleviates their suffering - Then yes. Why not?If however being emperor of the world involves having the power to have be-headed anyone whom he so designates - Then NO.

But how are you (or anyone else) being asked to do anything other than tolerate, accept or understand the "masquerade"...?And why not do that in situations where the alternative is a degree of desperation that leads to the taking of one's own life?

If you want to suggest further investigation is necessary - I won't argue.But until such questions are emphatically answered why deny people potentially life saving treatment because you have an ideological problem?

Do people get sex change operations simply because they have demanded it? I thought it took considerable medical and psychological evaluations in order to be accepted for such surgery.Are you telling me people in the US can wander into a clinic, demand to have their genitals removed because they think they might prefer it that way and then get accepted for surgery if they simply say they will kill themselves if their demands are not met?Is that how you think it works? Isn't that for doctors, psychologists to assess based on detailed evaluation of the patient over an extended period of time? Who the hell are you to say no?I am mystified as to your objection to surgery on some sort of ideological principle. If it is genuinely deemed the best course of action for the patient (in the absence of superior and less drastic alternatives that may or may not appear at some later date) - Why should it be removed as an option? That isn't how it works. As you full know.

Is that what you think the symptoms of transsexualism are? A desire to "act like" a member of the opposite sex? I would say the reason someone is contemplating taking their own life is very relevant to why it is they are contemplating taking their own life.How can it not be? If human beings were wholly logical automatons I doubt transgenderism would be an issue for anyone any more than Mac having a deep psychological conviction that it is a PC is a widespread problem.Fortunately humans are not wholly logical automatons. But this does mean we need to find ways to tackle issues of human subjectivity without simply asserting that such issues are illogical.

But transsexualism isn't about "acting that way" is it? It's about self-identity. It's about a mind-body mismatch.To use a rather extreme comparison to make the mind-body mismatch point: If you woke up one day to find yourself in the body of a baboon would others agreeing to treat you as a human be enough to resolve your plight?Or would you think that resolving your mind-body mismatch might be a preferable solution? If surgery could resolve the issue wouldn't you opt for it? If I woke up to find myself in a body that I felt made any life impossible to live (e.g. completely paralysed) I might well prefer death.If I could change that body the need to contemplate death as a solution would obviously vanish.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm simply pointing out that transsexualism is about self-identity and a mind-body mismatch. The mind. I think there are similarities with 'Body Identity Integrity Disorder' but that these can be overstated. One's sex is a far more fundamental component of self-identity than how many limbs one has. If I lost a leg I would still be me. If I somehow swapped bodies and had a different set of hormones and even a different brain physiology how much of "me" was retained would be a difficult and interesting question to try and answer. That is an interesting question. Has there ever been a case of this? Firstly - If we had psychological treatments that worked and which patients were happy with then I doubt anyone would be advocating surgery as an answer.Secondly - The reason people may not want their minds altered is because we are our minds. And the fear is to lose self-identity.To use my rather extreme mind-body mismatch comparison once again: If you woke up one day to find yourself in the body of a baboon do you think that resolving your mind-body mismatch by changing your mind to that of a baboon would be a viable answer to your plight? You are assuming that someone who deems death preferable to to existing in a body that makes life unbearable will deem death preferable to every single other problem in life as well. I don't think that is a justifiable assumption on your part.