Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice

I was with you until this: This is only a recent phenomenon, if you could even call it that, due to a few sick doctors fucking with what nature built and now "in the wrong body" becomes a thing that can be said.I'm a HUGE supporter of gay rights but certainly not of slicing up one's body to change their entire gender. I don't know how a doctor can ethically do that to a human being.I'm all for gays doing whatever, my record speaks for itself here in that debate. And I wouldn't tell someone they can't feel like a woman or a man if they were in the opposite body. But for a medical doctor to use their skills and knowledge to butcher someone up like that is frankly fucked up.- Oni

Corrective surgery? Wow... ok. Correcting what, exactly?What are people going to say, really? They're now fucked, and forced to live with the choice they've made. I've read of there being plenty of emotional problems after the surgery requiring therapy and counciling. Let's not pretend it's all good afterwards.It should be illegal for doctors to use their skills of healing people in such an outrageous fashion. It's sick. Again, people can do whatever they want and feel like they're a woman all they want. But doctors should not butcher people simply because they requested it. There is such a thing as ethics in the medical field and I find it extremely unethical to perform such a "corrective" surgery.- Oni

We saw how well it turned out for Michael Jackson.- Oni

I have no hang ups when it comes to sexuality. I could careless. I'm just calling into question the ethical aspect of performing such a surgery one a human being simply because they feel like a different gender. That's not a doctors job, in my opinion.- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

Yes you do. There is a huge difference between a girl getting bigger tits and going through a sex change operation. Eledtive surgery? I thought it was corrective surgery? Unfortunately it's also used to satisfy an increasingly shallow societies dream look. Soon all black girls will be blonde girls and all short guys tall. Then we'll be perfect, and happy.- Oni

I have to agree with them, then. What is it correcting, exactly? Nature made a female, was that incorrect?If a black kid feels as though he'll have a better chance of being employed if he changes his race, would that too be corrective surgery? Did you know Germans are into getting shit on during sex? I seen it! How do you distinguish between someone wanting to cut off an arm or someone wanting to cut off their penis, if both are requested to a medical doctor to perform surgically? I see them as mentally ill people in need of some introspective therapy. Not surgery for profit then tossed out into the street as though they were "fixed." Easy, before you start hugging all the trees again. I never said it was fucked up to feel that way. I said it was fucked up for a doctor to perform such a surgery. The person needs mental help. I would love anyone, whatever gender or post-op what have you they were. It's not about the individual. I would also defend that individual from bullying or any other form of aggression toward them, physically if I had too.My point is only that doctors should not be cutting someone up who is, in my opinion, in need of menatl help.- Oni

Yeah, I left it unstated because I don't believe you are a fucking idiot and can see the difference. If this is the rabbit hole you need to go to in this debate, then we can end this here. It has been zero fun lately to debate here, mostly because of disingenuous shit like this. Plus it's turned into Facebook, how utterly annoying.It was more fun being dark Oni... That doesn't make any sense. Que? I was merely asking which YOU wanted to use, since it seems interchangable for you. Corrective surgery is Lasik, correcting vision. A sex change is correcting nothing. At all. Define normal...?I don't know who is normal and who is not normal. Between the black girl and the blonde in my example, which is normal and which one is playing the hand they were dealt? Same goes for a short person and a tall person. Which is normal?You've lost me in your ridiculousness, so if you could please try to make some sense. Oh lets see, eyes are bad, need correcting... yep, that's corrective surgery.Nothing physically wrong with those having a sex change. It is therefore NOT corrective. They elect to do it, sure. But they are not correcting anything unless you mean to tell me nature fucked up making them the wrong sex?- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

Facts I could dig up on the matter. Doesn't favor well with those supporting sex changes, mostly because it doesn't improve the lives of those under-going the surgery. I'll provide quotes, you can read the whole thing if you like. Sex changes are not effective, say researchers

quote:

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There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow.

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The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.

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Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

quote:

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Results

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The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8—4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8—62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9—8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0—3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

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Conclusions

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Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

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This one seems unsure as to the long term effects and makes reference to the procedure possibly being abandoned eventual except for very very few you would qualify. You can read the rest here: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Historical, Bioethical, and Theoretical Issues

quote:

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CONCLUSIONS
The reported 68%-86% success rates for sex reassignment surgery must be viewed cautiously. The lack of long-term follow-up studies makes these statistics misleading. As long as sex reassignment surgery remains a viable treatment modality, it is reasonable to ask how one determines which patients will most benefit from sex reassignment surgery. Currently the selection criteria available are informally culled from clinical guidelines established by the various gender identity clinics nationwide. These criteria might be used in establishing universally acceptable guidelines for referring a patient for sex reassignment surgery. In order for these guidelines to be effective one would have to ensure that sex reassignment surgery was done only by skilled surgeons in highly selected university-based clinics that could provide follow-up. Essentially, this would mean limiting all sex reassignment surgery to a select number of hospitals in the United States. While this raises certain ethical issues, it is clear that current abuse comes from the widespread availability of sex reassignment surgery and not the other way around.

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While sex reassignment surgery has definite medical-surgical and psychological limitations, there is insufficient evidence to warrant its termination. In deed, there is evidence suggesting that some gender dysphoric patients benefit primarily from sex reassignment surgery (reference 12 and an unpublished study by S. Satterfield). The problem is how to identify these patients. The growing body of literature implicating a neurohormonal hypothesis in gender dysphoria (57) also cannot be used to justify sex reassignment surgery, since the disorders of gender dysphoria are primarily psychological disorders, and it is rare to substantiate a neurohormonal disorder for any given case. Most gender dysphoric patients, however, are secondary transsexuals (58) who can benefit from various modes of psychotherapy (54-56). To date the evidence suggests that many patients who would have otherwise undergone sex reassignment surgery may adjust to a nonsurgical solution through psychotherapy (7). Moreover, many misdiagnosed gender dysphoric patients need psychotherapy, not surgery (59). Indeed, sex reassignment surgery should only be considered as the last resort for a highly select group of diagnosed gender dysphoric patients. It is imperative that legislators who wish to provide Medicaid payments for transsexual surgery understand that, in most cases, alternatives to sex reassignment surgery are available to patients. Physicians wishing to refer a patient for evaluation for sex reassignment surgery should be allowed to make use of the many specialized gender dysphoria clinics that are currently in operation.

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As clinicians learn new ways to diagnose and treat transsexualism, either sex reassignment surgery will be abandoned as a routine treatment modality (reserved for only a few select patients) or new predictive variables for choosing suitable patients for sex reassignment surgery will be established. Future research needs to focus on long-term follow-up studies maximizing the use of those methodological issues outlined in this paper which will enhance our understanding of the etiology and the course of gender identity disorders.

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So can any of the supporters provide evidence for the long term effects being good?- Oni

First, I quoted three studies, two of which show the lack of success. The third, the one you chose to quote, seemed almost unsure.From the same one you quoted from:

quote:

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As clinicians learn new ways to diagnose and treat transsexualism, either sex reassignment surgery will be abandoned as a routine treatment modality (reserved for only a few select patients) or new predictive variables for choosing suitable patients for sex reassignment surgery will be established. Future research needs to focus on long-term follow-up studies maximizing the use of those methodological issues outlined in this paper which will enhance our understanding of the etiology and the course of gender identity disorders.

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Here it points to the abandonment of sex reassignment surgery (except for a very few select patients.) Et tu, Straggler? I posted three quotes on the matter, two of which showed no support for it, saying the patients were in fact worse. One claimed MAYBE it will be ok for a few patients. But also went on to say: As clinicians learn new ways to diagnose and treat transsexualism, either sex reassignment surgery will be abandoned as a routine treatment modality...And from that you are saying the facts claim support of sex reassignment surgery? Really? At best it's saying maybe it will be something to do, but also, it may be abandoned all together. But the other two studies showed zero support for it.So no, the question is NOT who gets it. The question STILL remains is it the right thing to do? Two studies say absolutely NOT. One says maybe for some very few select people, but perhaps not at all.Can someone post some facts that show a clear support for it?- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

- Oni

I know that was a shot at me, but I don't mind it when you do it. Hope you feel better. Whiskey...lots of it. Personally I don't think there is enough evidence of the long-term effects to know if, even in the small cases, it is a good idea. There seems to be conflicting opinions by the experts. One report says in small cases it has been good, the other two say that it is worse for the patient.I remain skeptical.But when I started this debate, I was told there are many case studies that say the people are better off after. No one has as of yet presented that. I did some leg work but only found conflicting views.I remain skeptical.- Oni

*double pistols* Of course. It was never about whether I can conceive of it or not, it was simply a concern that the best interest of an indivudual was not being served by having such a drastic surgery. This whole debate could have started and ended with that position right there.I will further say, until such time as the brain is fully understood, or better understood perhaps I should say, performing such a surgery should not be allowed. Because, as some evidence has shown, it can in fact make the person worse than before. It seems by the evidence that that is the case in the majority of cases, except for the very few where it may have benefited.So given this, which side do you stand on? Currently... pro or against?- Oni

But given that, as the evidence shows, the majority of cases end up being worse, and only in a small number of cases it might be a positive thing. Shouldn't the final determination be at the discretion of a doctor, and not up to the individual?I mean, how can someone make such a determination when even the experts can't figure it out?- Oni

It seems like we got them to come around. Anytime it can buy the doctors an new sports car.- Oni

Let me rephrase it this way: If the majority show a negative effect, why then should an individual be consulted as to what their opinion on the matter is? It involves something far beyond their own expertice. And in fact, even the experts are a bit confussed themselves. No not all. I think there isn't enough evidence to support such a drastic operation. I feel, even in the small cases, since there is also skepticism there too, a lot more study needs to be done. So for now, I say put down the knife and get to work. Hold off on any surgery until this phenomenon is actually understood.- OniPS. I'm still waiting on ALL the evidence that was going to show it had a positive post-op effect. Not from you Straggler but from those who made that claim.