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Author Topic:   Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 181 of 276 (663589)
05-25-2012 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Straggler
05-25-2012 2:40 PM


Re: Identity
Straggler writes:
Are you denying that there can be any non-social component to transsexualism?
I haven't said any such thing.
Straggler writes:
So how do we tackle these non-social causes?
We don't tackle causes. We tackle problems caused by the causes. Often it is useful to know the cause of the problem in order to solve it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 2:40 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 3:07 PM ringo has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 182 of 276 (663590)
05-25-2012 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by ringo
05-25-2012 3:02 PM


Re: Identity
Ringo writes:
Often it is useful to know the cause of the problem in order to solve it.
Indeed. If the cause of the problem is wholly social then a wholly social solution (i.e. treating people with tolerance etc.) may well solve the problem.
If however the cause of the problem is physiological then how can you exclude physiological solutions (such as surgery)?
Wiki writes:
The etiology of transsexualism, meaning the cause or causes of transsexualism, is an area of interest for many transgender and transsexual people, physicians, psychologists, other mental health professionals, and family members and friends of transsexual people. Transsexualism usually presents with an expression of gender identity different from the gender assigned at birth, behaviors typical of that gender, and discomfort called gender dysphoria.[1] Currently, there are numerous scientific explanations of the cause of transsexualism, linking the cause to genetics, brain structure, brain function and prenatal androgen exposure; in addition other theories have proposed linking the cause to psychological and behavioral reasons. These theories are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Link
So how do we tackle these non-social causes?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 3:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 3:10 PM Straggler has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 183 of 276 (663592)
05-25-2012 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Straggler
05-25-2012 2:55 PM


Re: Identity
Straggler writes:
But if one's self identity isn't wholly determined by others then simply changing how others react to someone isn't going to solve all issues of self identity is it?
Why is it necessary to solve all issues of sexual identity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 2:55 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 3:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 184 of 276 (663593)
05-25-2012 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Straggler
05-25-2012 3:07 PM


Re: Identity
Straggler writes:
If however the cause of the problem is physiological then how can you exclude physiological solutions (such as surgery)?
Since when is surgery a psychological solution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 3:07 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 3:11 PM ringo has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 185 of 276 (663594)
05-25-2012 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by ringo
05-25-2012 3:10 PM


Re: Identity
Physiological.
PHYS
not
PSYCH

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 3:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 3:18 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 186 of 276 (663595)
05-25-2012 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by ringo
05-25-2012 3:08 PM


Re: Identity
Straggler writes:
But if one's self identity isn't wholly determined by others then simply changing how others react to someone isn't going to solve all issues of self identity is it?
Ringo writes:
Why is it necessary to solve all issues of sexual identity?
It is desirable to solve those issues of sexual identity which are ruining people's lives for the same reason it is desirable to solve any issue which ruins people's lives.
Not all of these life ruining issues of sexual identity can be solved by changing how others react.
So how do we tackle those?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 3:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 3:22 PM Straggler has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 187 of 276 (663597)
05-25-2012 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Straggler
05-25-2012 3:11 PM


Re: Identity
Straggler writes:
Physiological
Sorry, I read what you should have said instead of what you did say. I don't think you've shown yet that transgenderism has a definite physiological cause.
If it's caused by brain structure, are you suggesting brain surgery?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 3:11 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 3:25 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 188 of 276 (663600)
05-25-2012 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Straggler
05-25-2012 3:15 PM


Re: Identity
Straggler writes:
Not all of these life ruining issues of sexual identity can be solved by changing how others react.
So how do we tackle those?
How do we tackle the life-ruining issues of racial identity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 3:15 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 3:31 PM ringo has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 189 of 276 (663602)
05-25-2012 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by ringo
05-25-2012 3:18 PM


Re: Identity
Wiki on Transsexualism writes:
Currently, there are numerous scientific explanations of the cause of transsexualism, linking the cause to genetics, brain structure, brain function and prenatal androgen exposure; in addition other theories have proposed linking the cause to psychological and behavioral reasons.
Ringo writes:
If it's caused by brain structure, are you suggesting brain surgery?
I'm asking what you are suggesting as an answer to non-social causes.
Do you have any suggestions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 3:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 3:37 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 190 of 276 (663604)
05-25-2012 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by ringo
05-25-2012 3:22 PM


Re: Identity
Ringo writes:
How do we tackle the life-ruining issues of racial identity?
Can you give me an example of a black man asking to have his inner white man surgically brought forth? (or any other comparable example)
Or even any scientific evidence showing that there are brain differences between races of the sort that exist between the sexes?
Wiki writes:
Transsexualism usually presents with an expression of gender identity different from the gender assigned at birth, behaviors typical of that gender, and discomfort called gender dysphoria. Currently, there are numerous scientific explanations of the cause of transsexualism, linking the cause to genetics, brain structure, brain function and prenatal androgen exposure...
Are there any similar examples of race dysphoria?
If not - How relevant is your question?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 3:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 3:46 PM Straggler has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 191 of 276 (663605)
05-25-2012 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Straggler
05-25-2012 3:25 PM


Re: Identity
Straggler writes:
I'm asking what you are suggesting as an answer to non-social causes.
And you've suggested surgery as a possible answer. I'm wondering why brain surgery wouldn't be the answer to a brain problem. If you're suggesting genital surgery as an answer to a gential problem, then I'm asking you (again) to show that the problem is genital in origin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 3:25 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 3:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 192 of 276 (663609)
05-25-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Straggler
05-25-2012 3:31 PM


Re: Identity
Straggler writes:
Can you give me an example of a black man asking to have his inner white man surgically brought forth?
It isn't politically correct to say, "I'm a white man trapped in a black man's body." Are you seriously suggesting that there are no black people who wish they were white? Have you never heard of black people trying to "pass" as white?
Straggler writes:
Or even any scientific evidence showing that there are brain differences between races of the sort that exist between the sexes?
Brain differences between the sexes aren't relevant. Can you show that there are brain differences between men who want to be women and men who want to be men? Can you show that there are brain simiarities between men who want to be women and women who were born women?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 3:31 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 3:55 PM ringo has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 193 of 276 (663610)
05-25-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by ringo
05-25-2012 3:37 PM


Re: Identity
Ringo writes:
And you've suggested surgery as a possible answer. I'm wondering why brain surgery wouldn't be the answer to a brain problem.
If we have a self identity problem as a result of physiology we can either change the brain (i.e. the identity) or change the rest of the body.
The problem with changing the brain is that in doing so we change the identity to fit the body rather than the other way round.
It comes down to this - If you want to exist and yet are given the hypothetical choice of either having a body transplant (i.e. your brain in another body) or a brain transplant (i.e. your body but with a different brain) which would you choose?
There can be only one answer. If you want to exist you need to retain your brain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 3:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 4:00 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 194 of 276 (663612)
05-25-2012 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by ringo
05-25-2012 3:46 PM


Re: Identity
Ringo writes:
Can you show that there are brain differences between men who want to be women and men who want to be men? Can you show that there are brain simiarities between men who want to be women and women who were born women?
Apparently so:
Wiki writes:
In the first of its kind, Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size.
Now can you show similar evidence regarding different races?
If not will you stop making that comparison?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 3:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by ringo, posted 05-25-2012 4:23 PM Straggler has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 195 of 276 (663614)
05-25-2012 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Straggler
05-25-2012 3:51 PM


Re: Identity
Straggler writes:
If you want to exist and yet are given the hypothetical choice of either having a body transplant (i.e. your brain in another body) or a brain transplant (i.e. your body but with a different brain) which would you choose?
That isn't the question. The question is: If transgenderism is caused by brain structure, why wouldn't you look for a brain tweak as the "cure"? We're not talking about changing the whole brain, just the part that's causing the problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 3:51 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2012 4:06 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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