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Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice | |||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
I haven't said any such thing.
Are you denying that there can be any non-social component to transsexualism? Straggler writes:
We don't tackle causes. We tackle problems caused by the causes. Often it is useful to know the cause of the problem in order to solve it.
So how do we tackle these non-social causes?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Ringo writes: Often it is useful to know the cause of the problem in order to solve it. Indeed. If the cause of the problem is wholly social then a wholly social solution (i.e. treating people with tolerance etc.) may well solve the problem. If however the cause of the problem is physiological then how can you exclude physiological solutions (such as surgery)?
Wiki writes: The etiology of transsexualism, meaning the cause or causes of transsexualism, is an area of interest for many transgender and transsexual people, physicians, psychologists, other mental health professionals, and family members and friends of transsexual people. Transsexualism usually presents with an expression of gender identity different from the gender assigned at birth, behaviors typical of that gender, and discomfort called gender dysphoria.[1] Currently, there are numerous scientific explanations of the cause of transsexualism, linking the cause to genetics, brain structure, brain function and prenatal androgen exposure; in addition other theories have proposed linking the cause to psychological and behavioral reasons. These theories are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Link So how do we tackle these non-social causes? Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
Why is it necessary to solve all issues of sexual identity?
But if one's self identity isn't wholly determined by others then simply changing how others react to someone isn't going to solve all issues of self identity is it?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
Since when is surgery a psychological solution?
If however the cause of the problem is physiological then how can you exclude physiological solutions (such as surgery)?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Physiological.
PHYS not PSYCH
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Straggler writes: But if one's self identity isn't wholly determined by others then simply changing how others react to someone isn't going to solve all issues of self identity is it? Ringo writes: Why is it necessary to solve all issues of sexual identity? It is desirable to solve those issues of sexual identity which are ruining people's lives for the same reason it is desirable to solve any issue which ruins people's lives. Not all of these life ruining issues of sexual identity can be solved by changing how others react. So how do we tackle those?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
Sorry, I read what you should have said instead of what you did say. I don't think you've shown yet that transgenderism has a definite physiological cause. Physiological If it's caused by brain structure, are you suggesting brain surgery?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
How do we tackle the life-ruining issues of racial identity?
Not all of these life ruining issues of sexual identity can be solved by changing how others react. So how do we tackle those?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Wiki on Transsexualism writes: Currently, there are numerous scientific explanations of the cause of transsexualism, linking the cause to genetics, brain structure, brain function and prenatal androgen exposure; in addition other theories have proposed linking the cause to psychological and behavioral reasons. Ringo writes: If it's caused by brain structure, are you suggesting brain surgery? I'm asking what you are suggesting as an answer to non-social causes. Do you have any suggestions?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Ringo writes: How do we tackle the life-ruining issues of racial identity? Can you give me an example of a black man asking to have his inner white man surgically brought forth? (or any other comparable example) Or even any scientific evidence showing that there are brain differences between races of the sort that exist between the sexes?
Wiki writes: Transsexualism usually presents with an expression of gender identity different from the gender assigned at birth, behaviors typical of that gender, and discomfort called gender dysphoria. Currently, there are numerous scientific explanations of the cause of transsexualism, linking the cause to genetics, brain structure, brain function and prenatal androgen exposure... Are there any similar examples of race dysphoria? If not - How relevant is your question?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
And you've suggested surgery as a possible answer. I'm wondering why brain surgery wouldn't be the answer to a brain problem. If you're suggesting genital surgery as an answer to a gential problem, then I'm asking you (again) to show that the problem is genital in origin.
I'm asking what you are suggesting as an answer to non-social causes.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
It isn't politically correct to say, "I'm a white man trapped in a black man's body." Are you seriously suggesting that there are no black people who wish they were white? Have you never heard of black people trying to "pass" as white?
Can you give me an example of a black man asking to have his inner white man surgically brought forth? Straggler writes:
Brain differences between the sexes aren't relevant. Can you show that there are brain differences between men who want to be women and men who want to be men? Can you show that there are brain simiarities between men who want to be women and women who were born women?
Or even any scientific evidence showing that there are brain differences between races of the sort that exist between the sexes?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Ringo writes: And you've suggested surgery as a possible answer. I'm wondering why brain surgery wouldn't be the answer to a brain problem. If we have a self identity problem as a result of physiology we can either change the brain (i.e. the identity) or change the rest of the body. The problem with changing the brain is that in doing so we change the identity to fit the body rather than the other way round. It comes down to this - If you want to exist and yet are given the hypothetical choice of either having a body transplant (i.e. your brain in another body) or a brain transplant (i.e. your body but with a different brain) which would you choose? There can be only one answer. If you want to exist you need to retain your brain.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Ringo writes: Can you show that there are brain differences between men who want to be women and men who want to be men? Can you show that there are brain simiarities between men who want to be women and women who were born women? Apparently so:
Wiki writes: In the first of its kind, Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size. Now can you show similar evidence regarding different races? If not will you stop making that comparison?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
That isn't the question. The question is: If transgenderism is caused by brain structure, why wouldn't you look for a brain tweak as the "cure"? We're not talking about changing the whole brain, just the part that's causing the problem.
If you want to exist and yet are given the hypothetical choice of either having a body transplant (i.e. your brain in another body) or a brain transplant (i.e. your body but with a different brain) which would you choose?
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