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Author Topic:   Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 211 of 276 (664825)
06-05-2012 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by onifre
06-03-2012 4:47 PM


Better Operations?
Oni writes:

If someone is theatening to kill themselves, and the only thing that will prevent that from happening is their demand for the surgery. Doing the surgery on the basis that they'll kill themselves is giving in to their demand. You don't have to say it for it to be implied in what you're saying.

You make it sound like the decision for surgery is based on a conversation like this:

Patient: I want a sex change. I'm desperate. I'll kill myself if you don't do it.

Doctor: Oh go on then. Drop your trousers....

But in reality the patient has to live entirely as a member of the sex they want to change to for up to two years (I think minimum 1 year in the UK) and even this stage is preceded by years of psychological and medical assessments. So the picture you are painting is just false. And you know it.

Oni writes:

I provided links showing the failure in the surgery making people's lives better.

I think you are taking a simplistic approach. Frankly you seem to have some sort of disbelief that transgenderism is a genuine medical condition and have then set-off to find reasons why surgery shouldn't be allowed based on this predetermined view.

Oni writes:

Yours is based on what exactly?

Well there seem to be a lot of testimonials from happy sex changees and the the studies done on psychological after effects seem to indicate that it is the success of the operation that determines how happy or troubled the patient is afterwards.

Link writes:

The relationship between the adequacy of surgical result and postoperative psychopathology was examined in 14 male-to-female transsexuals selected for the absence of preoperative psychopathology. Data indicated that the best predictors of postoperative psychopathology as rated on Hunt and Hampson's (1980) Standardized Rating Format were breast scarring, erectile urethral meatus, current social supports, family reaction, urinary incontinence, and need for extra surgery. Together, these accounted for 98% of the variance in postoperative psychopathology. These data suggest that factors which make it difficult for postoperative transsexuals to ldquopassrdquo or which continue to remind them of their gender-reassigned status are associated with adjustment difficulties. Surgical results may be a major determinant of postoperative psychopathology.

Link

So you could argue that better operations are the key to transsexual success. No?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by onifre, posted 06-03-2012 4:47 PM onifre has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17444
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 212 of 276 (664894)
06-06-2012 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Straggler
06-05-2012 4:19 PM


Re: Identity
Straggler writes:

Until then I'll just treat it as a false comparison.


In other words, you'll run away from a question you can't answer.

Please explain to us what the difference is between the two situations. What is fundamentally different between being distressed by male genitals and being distressed by round eyes? Be specific. If you want to claim that one has a physiological cause and the other doesn't, then you need to show that the cause of the distress is physiological.

Stop handwaving and discuss the issue honestly.

Straggler writes:

Then gender surgery to correct gender problems....?


If you can show that the problem is genital and that genital surgery corrects it, then I'm all for it. But so far we've seen that genital surgery isn't a very effective cure and we've seen you run like the wind from any discussion of the cause.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Straggler, posted 06-05-2012 4:19 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-06-2012 1:15 PM ringo has responded
 Message 219 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2012 10:02 AM ringo has responded

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 213 of 276 (664900)
06-06-2012 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by ringo
06-06-2012 12:02 PM


Re: Identity
It would appear that male and female brains are wired a little differently.
Researchers are starting to understand the differences now.

I've actually seen a few stories related to this on the web lately.
here are a few of the first ones that google turns up.
http://www.livescience.com/...red-differently-men-women.html
http://www.nairaland.com/...ns-brains-wired-differently-mens
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...-wired-differently-womens.html
Admittedly these aren't scientific journals but then again this was a 5 minute search.

I was unable to find anything related to studies about whether people with slanted eyes have different brains than those with round ones.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by ringo, posted 06-06-2012 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 06-06-2012 2:21 PM PurpleYouko has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17444
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 214 of 276 (664904)
06-06-2012 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by PurpleYouko
06-06-2012 1:15 PM


Re: Identity
PurpleYouko writes:

It would appear that male and female brains are wired a little differently.


We aren't talking about the difference between men and women. We're talking about the difference between men who want to be women and men who are content to be men (or women who want to be men and women who are content to be women).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-06-2012 1:15 PM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Rahvin, posted 06-06-2012 6:21 PM ringo has responded
 Message 216 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-07-2012 8:51 AM ringo has responded

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 215 of 276 (664929)
06-06-2012 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by ringo
06-06-2012 2:21 PM


Re: Identity
We aren't talking about the difference between men and women. We're talking about the difference between men who want to be women and men who are content to be men (or women who want to be men and women who are content to be women).

No, we are not.

A transwoman is already a woman, before ever seeking treatment. Likewise a transman is already a man.

I don't believe this to be a matter of misunderstanding, but that you fundamentally disagree with the actual experience of transgendered people.

But it's simple fact: this isn;t about "men who want to be women." A transwoman is already a woman. She identifies as a woman. She feels like a woman. In fact, see this study:

quote:
Antonio Guillamon's team at the National University of Distance Education in Madrid, Spain, think they have found a better way to spot a transsexual brain. In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who'd had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females.

They found significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter – and the female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.05.006). "It's the first time it has been shown that the brains of female-to-male transsexual people are masculinised," Guillamon says.

In a separate study, the team used the same technique to compare white matter in 18 male-to-female transsexual people with that in 19 males and 19 females. Surprisingly, in each transsexual person's brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.11.007). "Their brains are not completely masculinised and not completely feminised, but they still feel female," says Guillamon.


As previously mentioned, male and female brains have slightly different structure - and quite literally, a transwoman has a female brain in a male body, and vice versa.

In absolutely every relevant sense of what defines a person, who they actually are, trangendered individuals are the gender they identify as, regardless of the presence or absence of a specific chromosome, or the genitalia they happen to be born with.

I have seen absolutely nothing from you in the way of an actual reason why this is not the case, unless one were to believe that identity is actually defined physically, that we are what our bodies are, as opposed to our minds. You do, after all, consider gender reassignment to be genital mutilation, in which case repairing a cleft palate or other birth defect is also "mutilation."

The "problem" of transgenderism presents us with individuals who, quite literally, have a brain/body mismatch. They don;t jsut think they are a different gender than what a blood test or physical examination of genitals would suggest - their actual brain structure is that of the opposite gender.

The solutions, then, are to either try to change the brains or the bodies to resolve the mismatch.

As of yet, we cannot alter the structure of a male brain to make it female, nor can we do the reverse. No amount of therapy or surgery or medication seems to be capable of such a feat, and even making the attempt to do as much is typically extremely harmful, risky to the patients life, or both.

We can, however, perform high-quality gender transition treatments in some cases, particularly male-to-female transitions. A combination of long therapy, repeated analysis from doctors and psychiatrists, hormone therapy, and eventually surgery has proven in many cases to significantly improve the lives of patients (with the caveat that the patient's experience corresponds to the quality of the transition).

It doesn;t work 100% of the time. Sometimes it negatively affects the patient. But this isn't any different from just about any treatment to any disorder you can name - there is always a chance for failure, and quality-of-life is particularly subjective, dependent on the patient's expectations going in, the results of the treatment, and the specific problem being treated. Even something as common as depression cannot be solved consistently, and sometimes not at all regardless of drugs or therapy.

Saying "but look, it doesn't always work, and sometimes it's harmful" is an argument that can be used agains tthe entirety of the medical profession. You can go into surgery after a car wreck, and contract HIV from a transfusion. You can go in to get your tonsils removed, and wind up with an antibiotic-resistant infection. You can go to a doctor for depression treatment, and be given medicine that actually drives you to attempt suicide. I've known people personally who have taken medication that was intended to improve their lives but actually made the problem worse - risk is inherent in all medical procedures. It's why informed consent is used for any medical procedure - and with gender reassignment, that informed consent is set at a far, far higher standard than for just about any other treatment you could name.

So we have a problem, and we have exactly one solution that is shown to work at least some of the time. Other solutions are fantasies, and have never worked at all.

Yet you choose to insist that we should use these fantasy solutions. You say that "it's a brain problem, so we should fix the problem in the brain." But we can't. We lack the ability to rewire a female brain into male structure, or vice versa. We lack the medication to cause the problem to be resolved. There is no therapy that actually alters the identity of the individual in such a way, and attempts to do so, similar to attempts to treat and "cure" homosexuality, have proven to be disastrously harmful and cause a number of new and/or worse conditions to develop, including suicidal depression.

If a person is absolutely sure that they want to undergo gender reassignment even knowing the risks, and because that person legitimately has a brain/body mismatch that is not at all a fantasy or a delusion but is actually rooted in the actual structure and behavior of their brain, and because modern gender reassignment surgery is relatively safe and (particularly with male to female transition) very successful in terms of form and function...

...what possible reason could you have to deny them such a treatment?

All I see are the typical emotive reactions, labeling transition as "mutilation" and the dog-whistle assertion that those afflicted are either crazy or have a brain defect.

Transgender individuals do not need brain surgery. They are not crazy, and do not require psychiatric treatment beyond therapy to ensure that they are acting of sound mind and are capable of coping with the treatment itself.

They need to be allowed to be who they are. For some, that includes surgery to alter the body so that it matches the mind.

I don't see any problem with that.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 06-06-2012 2:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by ringo, posted 06-07-2012 12:10 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


(1)
Message 216 of 276 (665027)
06-07-2012 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by ringo
06-06-2012 2:21 PM


Re: Identity
We aren't talking about the difference between men and women. We're talking about the difference between men who want to be women and men who are content to be men (or women who want to be men and women who are content to be women).

I thought we were talking about people who are born with male brains in a female body and vice versa. I was merely pointing out that there is a physical difference in those brains.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 06-06-2012 2:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by ringo, posted 06-07-2012 12:20 PM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17444
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 217 of 276 (665041)
06-07-2012 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Rahvin
06-06-2012 6:21 PM


Re: Identity
Rahvin writes:

A transwoman is already a woman.


Your own quote - the part you bolded - doesn't say that:
quote:
Surprisingly, in each transsexual person's brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females.

Hafway between, which is what I might have guessed.

Rahvin writes:

She identifies as a woman. She feels like a woman.


Which is exactly what I've been saying.

Rahvin writes:

I have seen absolutely nothing from you in the way of an actual reason why this is not the case, unless one were to believe that identity is actually defined physically, that we are what our bodies are, as opposed to our minds.


I think I've said several times that the identity is not determined by the body. That's exactly why I don't believe in altering the body. Instead of molding the body to fit a stereotypical identity, just live your identity.

Rahvin writes:

You do, after all, consider gender reassignment to be genital mutilation, in which case repairing a cleft palate or other birth defect is also "mutilation."


Yes, the line is fine and fuzzy too. Have you learned what mutilation is yet? It includes tattooing, which some consider an improvement and some don't.

Rahvin writes:

The solutions, then, are to either try to change the brains or the bodies to resolve the mismatch.


Or... not to think of it as a "mismatch" at all and just be who you are.

Rahvin writes:

You say that "it's a brain problem, so we should fix the problem in the brain."


I've said no such thing. I've said that a surgical approach to the problem would attack the problem at the source of the problem. You're suggesting fixing a vision problem with knee surgery because eye surgery is "too hard". I'm saying that moving the site of the surgery negates the whole pretext of a physiological cause.

Rahvin writes:

They are not crazy....


As I've said before, there's no need to stigmatize mental illness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Rahvin, posted 06-06-2012 6:21 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2012 10:22 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17444
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 218 of 276 (665042)
06-07-2012 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by PurpleYouko
06-07-2012 8:51 AM


Re: Identity
PurpleYouko writes:

I thought we were talking about people who are born with male brains in a female body and vice versa.


There appears to be a spectrum of brain structure in which males tend to be clustered at one end and females tend to be clustered at the other end. We're talking about people who are somewhere in the middle. If there was a clear dichotomy, we'd be back to the old question of superiority and inferiority.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-07-2012 8:51 AM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 219 of 276 (665210)
06-10-2012 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by ringo
06-06-2012 12:02 PM


Re: Identity
I'm really not sure which part of this you are disputing:

quote:
In the first of its kind, Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size.

Ringo writes:

Please explain to us what the difference is between the two situations. What is fundamentally different between being distressed by male genitals and being distressed by round eyes?

Are there regions of the brain that correspond to racial identity in the same way that there are regions of the brain related to sexual identity?

Ringo writes:

So, if transgenderism is caused by brain structure, why not brain surgery instead of genital surgery to "fix" it?

Ringo writes:

But so far we've seen that genital surgery isn't a very effective cure and we've seen you run like the wind from any discussion of the cause.

Actually I've put forward brain structure as the cause and it is you who has "run like the wind" from even attempting to confront the evidence for that.

In fact if we follow the bizarre logic of your argument people who want cosmetic surgery on their eyes should be seeking brain surgery instead.......


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by ringo, posted 06-06-2012 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-10-2012 11:43 AM Straggler has responded
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 06-10-2012 4:13 PM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 220 of 276 (665211)
06-10-2012 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by ringo
06-07-2012 12:10 PM


Hypothetical Mind Upload
Let's just say hypothetically that we could download a mind and upload it, once only, into whatever designed-for purpose-blank-brained-body the person in question chose.

Transsexuals would choose a body of the opposite sex to the one they were born with.

Would you object to this hypothetical solution to gender identity issues?

I am trying to gauge whether it is surgery you are are objecting to or if you are just opposed to the entire idea of transsexualism period.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by ringo, posted 06-07-2012 12:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by ringo, posted 06-10-2012 4:15 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 221 of 276 (665223)
06-10-2012 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Straggler
06-10-2012 10:02 AM


Re: Identity
Actually I've put forward brain structure as the cause and it is you who has "run like the wind" from even attempting to confront the evidence for that.

In fact if we follow the bizarre logic of your argument people who want cosmetic surgery on their eyes should be seeking brain surgery instead.......

I don't want to speak for ringo, but if I've understood him correctly, he's saying that if there's something wrong with a brain, then you try to fix the brain; and he seems to find it odd to go: "There's something wrong with the brain, let's fix the genitals."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2012 10:02 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2012 1:09 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 223 by Rahvin, posted 06-10-2012 1:11 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 222 of 276 (665229)
06-10-2012 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by New Cat's Eye
06-10-2012 11:43 AM


Re: Identity
But is there something wrong with the brain?

Or is there a mind-body mismatch?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-10-2012 11:43 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-10-2012 1:52 PM Straggler has responded

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 223 of 276 (665231)
06-10-2012 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by New Cat's Eye
06-10-2012 11:43 AM


Re: Identity
I don't want to speak for ringo, but if I've understood him correctly, he's saying that if there's something wrong with a brain, then you try to fix the brain; and he seems to find it odd to go: "There's something wrong with the brain, let's fix the genitals."

And the dispute is over whether having a particular brain structure is "something wrong."

The problem is not at all the brain structure. Neither is the problem "the body." Neither are ill. Neither are defective.

The problem is that the brain structure and the body do not match.

Currently the only available method of treatment for that mismatch is to alter the body, because we cannot with any success alter the brain on this level.

Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-10-2012 11:43 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-10-2012 1:54 PM Rahvin has responded
 Message 229 by ringo, posted 06-10-2012 4:22 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 276 (665236)
06-10-2012 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Straggler
06-10-2012 1:09 PM


Re: Identity
But is there something wrong with the brain?

I dunno. When (ever?) does a mismatch between the brain and the body become a problem with the brain?

Or is there a mind-body mismatch?

Whoa, watch your step... you don't wanna get any dualism on your shoe


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2012 1:09 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2012 5:50 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 276 (665237)
06-10-2012 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Rahvin
06-10-2012 1:11 PM


Re: Identity
Currently the only available method of treatment for that mismatch is to alter the body, because we cannot with any success alter the brain on this level.

Can you envision a place where brain alteration would be a better treatment?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Rahvin, posted 06-10-2012 1:11 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Rahvin, posted 06-10-2012 2:02 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
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