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Author Topic:   Is God good?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 228 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 661 of 722 (685764)
12-26-2012 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 660 by kofh2u
12-26-2012 1:47 PM


Re: Charity is the lov of neighbor
Really???

If it is so simple that it means responible married people (who have 1.5 million legitimate babies every year) are to hand over money to other socially irresponsible people (who have "needs," SIMPLY because they give birth to 1.5 million illegitimate babies every year while aborting another 1.2 million unbron babies), then Levicus would seem to support contributing to a "church" of people far removed from Judaism and its doctrines.

That should have been Leviticus 25:35.

And I think the law is simple. We are not reading out of the American Constitution. We are reading out of the law of Moses.

That's what I meant by I think you are reading your conservatism into the Bible. There is a law there about your poor brother - "as he lives beside you". This is a neighberhood matter. You should like that because you hate big government. Right?

This is a neighberhood matter of intimate local nature. Look at it -

"And if your brother becomes poor, and he is unable to support himself [as he lives] beside you ..." This is someone right in close proximity to where you live.

It is saying that if this poor man beside you is unable to support himself - " ... then you shall support him, like a stranger and a sojourner, so that me may live BESIDE YOU."

This is a law about the people looking out for the welfare of the neighbor close to them - "beside" them. It is indeed simple.

There is no garuantee that all the people will obey the law. But it is a window into the heart of God that He gave such a law to Israel.

I agree with Moses that this ancient Israel was "a great nation that has statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law ..." (Deut. 4:8)

Are you saying that this law in Leviticus 25:35 was certainly NOT righteous ? You seem to be saying that this was a very very bad and unjust law.

I think you would be out of step with the assessment of the word of God concerning this. If you think God should not have commanded Israel thusly, then maybe you also think Deut. 15:7,8 is bad too?

Deut. 15:7,8 - "If among you there is a needy one amidst your brothers within any of your gates in your land, which Jehovah your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart and you shall not close up your hand from your needy brother;

But you must open your hand to him, and you must lend enough for his need in whatever he lacks."

Do you think Jehovah God needed to sit down with Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter and get a little more education about the way the world works ?

These are also included in the just and righteous statutes that Moses spoke about that would set Israel above the other nations as an example of a godly and just nation.

The believing Hebrews also had other promises of God in which they could put their faith. For example a Psalm of David came latter -

"Blessed is he who considers the poor; In the day of evil Jehovah will deliver him. May Jehovah keep him and preserve him alive. May he be blessed in the land; And do not give him over to the desire of his enemies." (Psalm 41:1,2)

There was great benefit in the simpicity of belief and obedience to God's laws.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 660 by kofh2u, posted 12-26-2012 1:47 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 662 by kofh2u, posted 12-26-2012 8:12 PM jaywill has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 662 of 722 (685777)
12-26-2012 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by jaywill
12-26-2012 6:06 PM


Re: Charity is the lov of neighbor

Do you think Jehovah God needed to sit down with Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter and get a little more education about the way the world works ?

You are trying too hard to figure out WHY I say the things that I say rather than focus on what I actually say.

This medium of communication is not appropriate to telling you why I say these things.

The Bible is a book about the psychology of the individual which predictably explains the Sociology we record as histroy long after the sad consequences have taken there toll.

It reveals the Truth which is the messiah who could save us if we would accept the Truth, and back down from our stubborn and erroneous positions on issues that need be resolved.

In this case, it is clear that helping our neighbor means "in the long run."

It does NOT mean that we are to enable whole systems to be set up, like Welfare, on the pretext of helping people, then observe 60 years of the evil ends we wrought, then try to scotch tape the corrupt system to save face.

Do you believe that helping young girls in trouble by legalizing abortion has helped young girls over the long haul?

Does paying Single Mothers other peple's money so they can care for their illegitimate babies helped the fatherless kids they now raise by the millions, and in geeration after generation?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2012 6:06 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 664 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 11:39 AM kofh2u has not yet responded
 Message 683 by Larni, posted 12-28-2012 11:11 AM kofh2u has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3847
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 663 of 722 (685796)
12-27-2012 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 651 by jaywill
12-24-2012 5:12 PM


Re: War is avoidable
jaywill writes:

Cut me a little slack. I'm not that smart.

You can have all the slack
I'm not saying you're a bad person at all. If I had to guess, I'd guess that you're a fine, upstanding citizen.
But you're not a benevolent, powerful, wise God.
You're not in control over this world.

God is. God doesn't get that slack, because all of this is His.
Therefore, the existence of evil is God's problem. And He fails at it.
Either He isn't benevolent, or He isn't powerful.

Whichever way we pick, He either isn't God, or isn't good.

But I will say this. The central most BAD THING that happened to a GOOD MAN in which the good overcame, overpowered, and reigned victoriously over the evil is the death and resurrection of the Son of God - Jesus Christ.

I agree. (Because we're taking the Bible as 100% correct in this thread).

But what about bad things that happen to good men in which the good still does not overcome, overpower or reign victoriously, though?
God allows those to happen.
And He's set up a system where good people lose and bad people win.
He easily could have done it in reverse.
He didn't, so He's not good.

"In the world you have affliction, but take courage; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33)

In one post I am not going to say more. Its too deep.

Okay.
But no one has overcome the world.
Evil is still here, the world is still here, God is still allowing the problem of evil to continue.
Therefore God is still not powerful, or He's not good.

Can't you see that His coming is near?

No, I can't even see that He was ever here.
There was a problem of evil before Jesus, and there still is one now. He seemingly didn't do anything.

Even if God cures the problem of evil in the future, or in the afterlife. He still isn't curing it now.
So, He's either not powerful, or not good.

When the weapons are turned to plows and the swords into pruning hooks and the nations study war no more, I want to be there to see. I don't share your pessimism.

This isn't pessimism, it's looking at reality.
Are you denying that human sex trafficking exists today?
Are you denying that many good people suffer many horrible evils today, for no reason at all?

It's not pessimism to acknowledge reality. But it is ignorant to hand-wave it away as it doesn't matter.

I would like to write out the whole chapter. But the present and the future of the believer in Christ is glorious - triumphant and victorious.

You don't want to miss all this enjoyment, do you?

I am not looking for personal enjoyment. Myself, I'm having a pretty good time in this life. I even have the freedom to speak of such things on this wonderful internet with you. Others, however, are not so lucky. Why make them suffer and wait even another second? Why not cure the problem of evil now?
There are only two possibilities:
a) God is not powerful enough.
b) God is not good enough.

While posting with foreveryoung, I've come to realize that it is certainly possible that I'm simply not smart enough to understand "God's plan."

I admit that it is possible that I simply do not understand the full situation and that God really is good.
Of course, I must also admit that it is possible that you are completely wrong and God really isn't very good at all.

All I can do is make judgements with the information I have available.
I am fully open to new information, and upon such I will review the scenario again.

However, the information I do have is that a problem of evil does exist in this world.
There is a problem of evil, and if I had enough power I could stop it and end the problem. I would simply restrict the evil man's free will instead of the good man's free will whenever the two came into conflict. I could even use the "absolute moral system" as found in the Bible (which is still assumed to be 100% correct for this thread).

There is a problem of evil.
A powerful and benevolent God would correct it (I would if I was powerful and benevolent).
Therefore God is not powerful (not God).
Or, God is not good.

Or, of course, I could be wrong as I don't have all the information.
But all judgements are made without all the information, and contain this clause.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 651 by jaywill, posted 12-24-2012 5:12 PM jaywill has not yet responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 228 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 664 of 722 (685809)
12-27-2012 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 662 by kofh2u
12-26-2012 8:12 PM


Re: Charity is the lov of neighbor
The Bible is a book about the psychology of the individual which predictably explains the Sociology we record as histroy long after the sad consequences have taken there toll.

I read this sentence several times. I don't fully get what you mean here. I think what you wrote here describes maybe one aspect of what we can learn from the Bible.

I mean quite more than just the SOUL of man is revealed. You said "The Bible is a book about the psychology of the individual ...".
The psychology deals with the psyche or the SOUL of man. But the soul is not the whole of man. Of course there is the spirit and soul and body as a three part division of man.

"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23)

The Bible deals not only with the psyche or SOUL of individuals but the human spirit which is deeper. The human spirit is the "organ" with which man can contact God, touch God, and fellowship with God directly.

It is in the innermost being, the human spirit, that men can be born again -

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

So concerning your first sentence, that the Bible is about the psychology of the individual ... etc., I would want to add crucial and vital matters are revealed about the spirit of man. Crucial matters are mentioned concerning the body of man as well.

God's salvation includes -

1.) the regeneration of the human spirit,

2.) the transformation of the soul,

3.) the transfiguration of the body.

As you can see in the above John 3:6. It is God the capital S Spirit Who is the cause of the new birth of the small s human spirit. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit"

Not only would I like to mention that the Bible is about the human spirit as well as the human soul. The Bible is about the corporate and the collective as well as the individual.

Rather than a lot of isolated spiritual people running around in a totally individualistic way, the Bible consumates in a "city" which is built up as a corporate expression of God mingled with an huge collective. The New Jerusalem is a corporate expression of God and man united and interwoven together. She is an enlargement of Christ the Godman as a corporate and aggregate "city" Godman.

In short God's eternal purpose is to mass produce sons of God as people redeemed, regenerated, sanctified, transformed, built up in love, resurrected, glorified and made a corporate expression of God and man mingled together.

I might say the Bible is in three major sections. These sections are not equal in length.

1.) God planned and created
2.) Man fell and ruined
3.) God recovered and fulfills His plan

Everything in the Bible is related to and headed towards Revelation chapters 21 and 22. This is the destination. Of course many things are about Satan working to oppose God's eternal purpose. Such as the "sad" and negative things you spoke of.

The Bible is about God operating to join Himself with man so that man and God become a mingled, united; a blended entity. The focus and prototype of this in Jesus Christ who is God/man and the Lord and Savior of the world. He is also called "the Desire of all the nations":

"And I will shake all the nations, and the Desire of all the nations will come; and I will fill this house with glory, says Jehovah of hosts." (Haggai 2:7)

Christ is "the Desire of all the nations". Only Christ's coming will bring in the righteous justice for all peoples as the nations desire.


It reveals the Truth which is the messiah who could save us if we would accept the Truth, and back down from our stubborn and erroneous positions on issues that need be resolved.

Sometimes we have to back down on our erroneous positions for sure. But sometimes we may even need to backdown on are correct positions.

That is we can be right but "dead right". We can be simply apart from Christ Himself. We can be right but apart from Christ. I say we can be even "good" yet apart from God Himself.

In Genesis man was placed before two trees as two sources of living. One was the tree of life. The other was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't know if you have ever thought about this. It was not a tree of good on one side and a tree of evil on the other side. Both the knowledge of good and of evil were on one tree. That made is rather complicated. On one tree there was the knowledge of good and evil. And on the other tree was the life, God's very life, the life of God - uncreated and divine - the tree of life.

We must repent of our evil to God, no doubt.
But often we must repent of our good which is Godless, in order to join to God. We can be right but away from God as life.

This passage shows the great dichotomy before the first man was the Life of God verses the knowledge of good and evil apart from God -

"And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every treee that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, as well as the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (Gen. 2:9)

The Bible shows that God's eternal purpose can only be achieved by a man of life. That is a man joined to God as the uncreated divine life. A good man is good. But a mere good man cannot achieve to eternal purpose of God. For God wants a Godman and not just a goodman. God wants a man whose human life is saturated and permeated with God Himself to express the incorporation of the uncreated Divine into the human created.

In this case, it is clear that helping our neighbor means "in the long run."

I was needling you a little bit. Now we were talking about God's gradual operation and move to achieve what He eventually obtains in Revelation 21 and 22.

On the way we have the theocratic nation of Israel in the Old Testament. God gave her many laws. I wanted you to admit that these laws are as Moses said - " righteous " -


" And what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law which I am setting before you today?" (Deut. 4:7,8)

Some of those judgments and statutes embody a liberality in considering the welfare of its citizens. There is no use in denying this.

One of those statutes was about not letting the poorer man living beside you simply sink into destitution. They were like people as you and I. I am sure they considered "Well how did this guy GET that way in the firsts place. Maybe it was all his own fault. If so then WHY should I help him?"

I don't think human nature has changed. Of course the Hebrews could have similar thoughts. But the statute was the statute just the same (Leviticus 25:35).

In these righteous laws given to Israel there was quite a lot also concerning not oppressing the poor. Latter in Proverbs we read that to oppress the poor is to insult the Creator God -

"He who oppresses the poor reproaches his Maker, But he who is gracious to the needy honors Him." (Proverbs 14:31)

The Bible depicts God's righteousness as very much involving His believer's liberality -

" Hallelujah! Blessed is the man who fears Jeohvah, who delights greatly in His commandments (v.1) ... He has scattered abroad; he has given to the needy; His righteousness endures forever; (v.9) (Psalm 112:1,9)

This scattering abroad and giving to the needy is liberal. There is no sense in trying to deny it.

Of course the Bible also shows that there is an appropriate time for things under heaven. That is a time for this thing and a time for the opposite.

"For everything there is a season, And a time for every purpose under heaven ...

A time to keep, and a time to throw away." (Ecc. 3:1,6b)

It is not always the time to keep what you have.
it is not always the time to give away what you have.
The word of God says that there is a time for one and a time for the other. So we have to be flexible before God.

Remember I said that sometimes we need to repent of our good doing if it is apart from God.


It does NOT mean that we are to enable whole systems to be set up, like Welfare, on the pretext of helping people, then observe 60 years of the evil ends we wrought, then try to scotch tape the corrupt system to save face.

If you are an American like me, then we have recourse to elections and vote people in place who we believe will perhaps improve the laws of the nation.

But looking at the laws that God ordained for His one and only theocratic nation of Israel - those laws were all just and righteous. That is unless you disagree with Moses's assessment. They were not utopian. And when Christ came He said things to transcend many of those laws.

One of the most striking instances was the would be stoning of the woman caught in the act of adultery in John 8. You know the story. The law of Moses called for her to be stoned. But the Son of God spoke a transcending truth that pierced through the conscience of everyone standing there -

"Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. What then do you say? But they said this to tempt Him, so that they might have reason to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote with His finger on the ground.

But when they persisted in questioning Him, He stood up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let Him be the first to throw a stone at her.

And He stooped down and wrote on the ground, And when they heard that, they went out one by one, beginning with the older ones. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman stood where she was, in the midst. ... Neither do I condemn you; go and from now on sin no more." (See John 8:1-11)

While we excercise our democratic rights to vote in law makers we think are best for the nation, we Christians should try to introduce people to the one who sets free from sin and does not just condemn.
This is what I want to be about - spreading the Gospel of the kingdom and the Gospel of the grace of God.

You're welcome to use your citizen's right to enact laws you think are better for this US. I haven't heard you yet want to admit that the law in Leviticus 25:35 a just law from God to Israel.


Do you believe that helping young girls in trouble by legalizing abortion has helped young girls over the long haul?

I am not a political activist. I think the two opposing sides of the abortion issue should seek to work together on what they CAN agree upon. The number of unwanted pregnancies should be reduced.

A statute like Leviticus 25:35 said nothing about examining the neighbor to pass judgment upon him (or her).

In fact the statute there is not unlike Christ's teaching of being liberal with assistance we have to provide without questioning.

"To him who asks of you, give; and from him who wants to borrow from you, do not turn away." (Matt. 5:42)

Christ is describing the life of another Person. You cannot live that way anymore than I can. It requires another Person named Jesus to come into us. His instruction cuts deep at the root of human anxiety and selfishness.

Christ is teaching a life that is so wholly trusting in God and in God's trustworthiness that it can without fear, give away to another in need. He is talking about us being reborn by the the Father's divine life and walking in Christ.

The apostle John echoes the same high standard of morality to the churching audience of his letter -

"But whoever has the livelihood of the world and sees that his brother has need and shuts up his affections from him, how does the love of God abide in him?" (1 John 3:17)

The God of Leviticus has now become a man Jesus Christ. And He can come into us and be our life.


Does paying Single Mothers other peple's money so they can care for their illegitimate babies helped the fatherless kids they now raise by the millions, and in geeration after generation?

The problem of the disintegrating family is critical in the US.
The problem of intermarriage of close relatives in the mountainous areas of rural US is also a physiological hazard, one statistician told me.

Rampant promotion of promiscuity through "Free Speech" laws is another problem. There are many very serious problems with the US.

Some people want everyone to be born. But they also want the easiest and most efficient way to take away someone's life with convenience should the need arise - a GUN. They insist everyone be born. But they also insist that in a split second they be able to efficiently take away a life at the pull of a trigger.

I tend to vote democratic. But my final trust is in the coming of "the Desire of all the nations". All the world govenments will be shattered and blow away as shaft in the wind. You read Daniel no doubt.

In the book of Daniel human governments are seen from two points of view. They are seen from the standpoint of man on earth and from God's view above.

From our point of view these empires may appear as a noble human image of gold, silver, iron, stc. From God's point of view they are as monsters destroying people's lives.

The worldly governments may seem noble from our side of things. But every one of them are also as beasts crushing people, shattering people, destroying people's lives.

So my ultimate trust is in the kingdom of God and His will being done on earth as it is in heaven. Christ is coming to scatter the great image and Himself fill the whole earth as a mountain.

Are you praying for this? Are you looking forward to this?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by kofh2u, posted 12-26-2012 8:12 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 665 of 722 (685812)
12-27-2012 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 625 by jaywill
12-22-2012 4:58 PM


Re: No healing Just Grace
jaywill writes:


I would consider your god just leaving me alone a treasure.

You mean you would like to revoke His sunshine, His rain, His air, His gravity, His process of human love, marriage, birth, growth, etc.

You would like to revoke His entire creation from under your feet and from over your head.


Since He can't revoke mine without revoking yours too, that's a non-issue.

jaywill writes:

In spite of some typical hassles that all people in the world face, you have been granted many days of happiness with friends and to persue the things you like. No thanks to God for that either huh? You just wish God would leave you alone.


My friends can thank God for the gift of me if they want to.

jaywill writes:

And why do you come to Bible Study ? That's perculiar. Most people who hate baseball know better than to hang around Yankee Stadium. They might have to watch something about baseball.


Of course, I don't hate the Bible. I come to Bible Study to correct the misuse of the Bible. Funny how I keep butting up against you.

Where I would like your god to leave me alone is by not killing me for correcting you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 625 by jaywill, posted 12-22-2012 4:58 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 12:03 PM ringo has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 228 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 666 of 722 (685816)
12-27-2012 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by ringo
12-27-2012 11:47 AM


Re: No healing Just Grace
Since He can't revoke mine without revoking yours too, that's a non-issue.

Unthankfulness is a damage to one's proper humanity. By being so unthankful to God for the blessing of His creation you damage your own humanity.

Since the day you last wrote to me that you wished God would just leave you alone, you could turn around and find MANY things of which you could say -

"God, you know, I just want to stop for a moment and say thank you. "

You resent God. But God loves you. You may be annoyed at Jesus. But Jesus loves you. And being a little thankful to God is a good place to start in seeing reality as reality should be seen.


jaywill writes:
In spite of some typical hassles that all people in the world face, you have been granted many days of happiness with friends and to persue the things you like. No thanks to God for that either huh? You just wish God would leave you alone.

My friends can thank God for the gift of me if they want to.

It can work both ways. Nothing wrong with thanks to spread around both ways.

jaywill writes:
And why do you come to Bible Study ? That's perculiar. Most people who hate baseball know better than to hang around Yankee Stadium. They might have to watch something about baseball.

Of course, I don't hate the Bible. I come to Bible Study to correct the misuse of the Bible. Funny how I keep butting up against you.
Where I would like your god to leave me alone is by not killing me for correcting you.

I don't mind anyone pointing out a legitimate misuse of the Bible by me, just for the record.

I don't know what that has to do with you treasuring that God would leave you alone.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by ringo, posted 12-27-2012 11:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by ringo, posted 12-27-2012 12:44 PM jaywill has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 667 of 722 (685819)
12-27-2012 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 666 by jaywill
12-27-2012 12:03 PM


Re: No healing Just Grace
jaywill writes:

By being so unthankful to God for the blessing of His creation you damage your own humanity.


I'm thankful for the creation. I'm just not thankful to the god that you portray. It's your portrayal of God that's harmful to anybody's humanity.

jaywill writes:

You resent God. But God loves you. You may be annoyed at Jesus. But Jesus loves you. And being a little thankful to God is a good place to start in seeing reality as reality should be seen.


I resent your portrayal of God and Jesus.

jaywill writes:

I don't mind anyone pointing out a legitimate misuse of the Bible by me, just for the record.

I don't know what that has to do with you treasuring that God would leave you alone.


You seem to read my posts the same way as you read the Bible; you make up your own version as you go along.

What I said was that I would like the god that you portray to leave me alone. If there actually was a God, a real God, a good God, that would be a different matter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 12:03 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 670 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 12:58 PM ringo has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 228 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 668 of 722 (685820)
12-27-2012 12:49 PM


God's Goodness and Women
The topic here is "Is God Good?"

Well, to argee in the affirmative, especially as regards WOMEN, I would like to submit biblical facts.

Evidences of God's Goodness as Regards to Women:

The EQUALITY of Female to Male before God is underscored in some key places in the Bible

1. ) Genesis 1:27 - "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him, MALE AND FEMALE He created them." (my emphasis}

The WOMAN also partakes of being created in the image of God. Next time you look at a woman you should consider that she reminds you of God. Try it.

2.) Genesis 2:24 - "For this reason a man shall leave HIS FATHER AND HIS MOTHER, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh."

It did not say he shall leave ONLY his FATHER. The FATHER AND MOTHER share an equal status there. The mother is not seen as inferior of insignificant to the home base.

3.) Exodus 20:12 - "Honor your father AND YOUR MOTHER, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you."

The FEMALE here again has equal status as the male. Honor is to be rendered to the MOTHER just as it is to be rendered to the make father. Compare also to Exodus 21:15; Deut. 5:16; 21:18-21; 27:16.

4.) Leviticus 19:3 - "Every one of you shall reverence HIS MOTHER and his father"

(20:9) - "If there is anyone who curses his father OR HIS MOTHER, he shall sirely be put to death. He has cursed his father OR HIS MOTHER; his blood us upon him."

The female here is afforded the same honorable status as the male. To curse the mother is as serious as to curse the father.

5.) Proverbs 6:20 - "My son, observe the commandment of your father and do not forsake the TEACHING OF YOUR MOTHER."

The teaching of the FEMALE mother is set at the same level of sacredness as the teaching of the male father.

6.) Proverbs 18:22 - "He who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the Lord."

7.) Proverbs 19:26 - "He who assaults his father and drives HIS MOTHER away in a shameful and disgraceful son."

The female's status is here equal to that of the male's. To alienate either the father OR the mother is equally shameful.

8.) Proverbs 23:22 - "Listen to your father who begot you, and do not despise YOUR MOTHER when she is old."

Both man and woman inherit a dignity that is to revered in old age. Equality of status is revealed.

9.) Proverbs 23:25 - "Let your father AND YOUR MOTHER be glad, and let her rejoice who gave birth to you."

10.) Song of Songs 6:3 - "I am my beloved's and my beloeveds is mine" (comp 7:10)

This reveals MUTUAL ownership - the male owns the woman. Yet the woman also owns the man.

All these passages and more show God is good in placing male and female in equal status in many basic things.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by jar, posted 12-27-2012 12:56 PM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 679 by Stile, posted 12-28-2012 9:11 AM jaywill has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31485
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 669 of 722 (685821)
12-27-2012 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 668 by jaywill
12-27-2012 12:49 PM


Re: God's Goodness and Women
The Bible is so great, you can take stuff out of context and support just about any position.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 12:49 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 228 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 670 of 722 (685822)
12-27-2012 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by ringo
12-27-2012 12:44 PM


Re: No healing Just Grace
I resent your portrayal of God and Jesus.

Do you mean that I misrepresent to Bible in saying that God loves you?

Do you mean that I misuse the Bible in writing that Jesus loves you?

I do not misuse the Bible is stating the either God or the Son of God loves you. I am affirming what the Bible tells me about His love for us.

Great big sinners like you and me? Yes God loves us.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by ringo, posted 12-27-2012 12:44 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 671 by ringo, posted 12-27-2012 1:23 PM jaywill has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 671 of 722 (685824)
12-27-2012 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 670 by jaywill
12-27-2012 12:58 PM


Re: No healing Just Grace
jaywill writes:

Do you mean that I misrepresent to Bible in saying that God loves you?


Yes. You conveniently ignore the parts where it says he's going to torment me eternally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 670 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 12:58 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 3:06 PM ringo has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 228 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 672 of 722 (685832)
12-27-2012 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by ringo
12-27-2012 1:23 PM


Re: No healing Just Grace
Yes. You conveniently ignore the parts where it says he's going to torment me eternally.

I do not "conveniently ignore" passages concerning the fate of the lost. I deal with them as head on a manner as I am able.

What kind of existence do you think can be had in a state where God's forgiveness is rejected, His presence is disdained, His care is not wanted, His blessings are not needed, His holiness is insulted, His authority rejected, His glory profaned ?

Torment is an apt word to discribe the existence of the sinner who wants nothing but himself and his unforgiven transgressions against God and man.

The question at hand is "Is God Good". Some believe that if God is good then He should not hate sin. Some believe that if God is good then He should not condemn anyone.

In essence God says - "I will be good. But I will not be good at the expense of my being righteous. I will be good in a way which upholds my eternal righteous character."

It is the same with the forgiveness which we all need before God. He will forgive. He will forgive to the point that He sees you as never having sinned at all. He will forgive to the point to your very history is His perfect Son.

He will forgive but not without manifesting the PRICE of redeeming us out from under His law. He will forgive in a way that is not sentimental but upholds His righteousness and glory.

To us it seems like "free" forgiveness. To God there is no such thing. And wise sinner should come to the point of saying -

"God I agree that Jesus the Son of God was tormented under Your wrath, judged on my behalf, that I might be completely free from my debt to your law."

Ie. "Lord Jesus, You were tormented in my place, that I might have eternal redemption and eternal life. I just agree with God in this. I just say Amen. "Him who did not know sin He made sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor. 5:21)

This teaching came out of the mouth of Jesus. It was passed on to His faithful apostles.

Out of the SAME MOUTH that spoke the most loving words of love and mercy came also the most fearful words of eternal punishment. The same Person spoke both matters.

The mouth that gave to the world such sayings of forbearance, forgiveness, long suffering, kindness, graciousness, sympathy, empathy, understanding .... etc. from that same holy mouth also came the most fearsome words of God's judgment. So we ought to believe Him and believe into Him.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by ringo, posted 12-27-2012 1:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 673 by jar, posted 12-27-2012 3:10 PM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 674 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-27-2012 3:30 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 684 by ringo, posted 12-28-2012 11:30 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31485
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 673 of 722 (685833)
12-27-2012 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 672 by jaywill
12-27-2012 3:06 PM


The really Petty God
Torment is an apt word to discribe the existence of the sinner who wants nothing but himself and his unforgiven transgressions against God and man.

Huh?

Why would torment be an apt word? Are you saying the God you market is some bling-bling pimp Daddy that will get all pissed if She's dissed? Do you have any idea how petty that God seems?

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 3:06 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 674 of 722 (685837)
12-27-2012 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 672 by jaywill
12-27-2012 3:06 PM


Re: No healing Just Grace
What kind of existence do you think can be had in a state where God's forgiveness is rejected, His presence is disdained, His care is not wanted, His blessings are not needed, His holiness is insulted, His authority rejected, His glory profaned ?

Torment is an apt word to discribe the existence of the sinner who wants nothing but himself and his unforgiven transgressions against God and man.

Why? Does it hurt his widdle feelings, or something?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 3:06 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 675 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 4:49 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 228 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 675 of 722 (685852)
12-27-2012 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 674 by New Cat's Eye
12-27-2012 3:30 PM


Re: No healing Just Grace
Why? Does it hurt his widdle feelings, or something?

Are you sure it isn't you whose feelings are hurt ?

Maybe your ego's feelings are hurt at the thought that a sinner could really lose in the end, and not totally get away with it all.

Man is offended at the very thought of eternal punishment.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 674 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-27-2012 3:30 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by jar, posted 12-27-2012 5:27 PM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 681 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2012 10:35 AM jaywill has responded

  
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