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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Creationist Shortage

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Author Topic:   Creationist Shortage
Modulous
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 24 of 415 (661406)
05-05-2012 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Coyote
05-04-2012 11:21 PM


Re: Where Are The Creationists
Perhaps a solution is to initiate a new Forum on this site--perhaps call it "Creationists' Corner" or some such. I would suggest it be moderated for abusive language, trolling, and the like without moderating content as is necessary in the Science Forum.
Faith had a similar idea. What we ended up with was Theological Creationism and ID. It was meant to be a place to defend creationism/ID without recourse to science. It never really took off.

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Modulous
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 172 of 415 (667361)
07-06-2012 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by nwr
07-06-2012 9:34 AM


that's the impression that I get
nwr writes:
Buzsaw writes:
That's my impression anyway.
I think you are correct.
I thought, wow, nwr thinks Buzsaw has an agreeable impression of something about the Creationist Shortage issue. I must immediately see what impression that was.
But no, it was Itinerant Lurker all along. I guess my worldview isn't shifting much today, after all

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Modulous
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 196 of 415 (667493)
07-08-2012 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by marc9000
07-07-2012 9:00 PM


Re: What's the purpose here?
As things are now, if I propose a thread about the relationship between evolution and atheism, it gets buried somewhere in the coffee house, or free for all forums, hardly a respected place to address the serious political changes and problems currently happening because of the relationship between evolution and atheism.
Separation of church and state went into Social Issues and Creation/Evolution
abiogenesis went into Origin of Life and was then moved from there to Is It Science?
Theistic Evolution was not promoted.
I think that's all the PNTs you've made.
I ran through all of the PNTs this year to check, and I didn't see this happening there either, but maybe I'm wrong.
yet there is no sub-forum that examines the relationship between evolution and atheism.
As an Admin, if I thought it was worthy of discussion I'd probably consider putting it into Social Issues and Creation/Evolution or Creation/Evolution Miscellany. If it didn't really fit then the Coffee House would suffice I suppose. Sounds like it might generate some interesting discussion, so propose it. If you don't want to but do want to discuss it, let me know and I'll write the OP.
There's no need for a forum about it though, any more than there is a need for a forum that examines the relationship between geocentrism and Middle Eastern theism.
Right now, a current thread title on the main page reads What variety of creationist is Buzsaw? The new evolution/atheism forum could have a thread titled What variety of atheist is Panda?.
What variety of creationist is Buzsaw? (Minnemooseus and Buzsaw only) is in The Great Debate. If you want to start a Great Debate thread with Panda about that subject, you are welcome to do so.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

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Modulous
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 197 of 415 (667508)
07-08-2012 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by marc9000
07-07-2012 9:00 PM


threads about atheism and evolution
Some additional information (since you have already read my last post, I figured you wouldn't see an edit). I have since gone and looked for similar threads as the one you're thinking about:
There is Evolution != Atheism (re: the Rejection of Theism in Evolution), which is still open though it went massively offtopic. That was promoted to Creation/Evolution Miscellany
How Darwin caused atheism which is also still open. That was promoted to Social Issues and Creation/Evolution.
I guess my opinion of where to promote that kind of topic is shared by other Admins (AdminNosy and AdminAsgara).

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Modulous
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(3)
Message 411 of 415 (669835)
08-03-2012 2:34 PM


Some thoughts on the shortage
In my personal experience, most creationist posters that come here have a quite narrow focus. They usually have one or a small number of issues that they really want to talk about.
This might be 'law and origins and purpose', 'whale evolution', 'haeckel's fraud', 'biblical prohecy', or 'biblical archaelogy'.
If I'm being kind, then I'd suggest that they start fine. They'll find a relevant thread or make a PNT on their favourite subject. The one that drove them to register. Their argument is almost immediately descended upon by 'evolutionists', keen to take on some fresh debater.
At this point, some simply give up and leave. They might rationalize it by referring to the hostility they received or the terrible moderation. But one way or another, they don't want to stick around.
Some stay, they air some of their other focuses.
But then trouble starts to brew. They begin to repeat themselves. At first its in the appropriate threads. Its as if all those refutations had never been written. When people react angrily to this, the creationists react angrily back - usually but not always, escalating things beyond any acceptable level.
That's their first set of suspensions.
But then they start to bring their favoured line of arguments into threads where it is off topic. They react to criticism of this by ramping up the invective. This is their second set of suspensions.
Usually that's sufficient to invoke voluntary exile from EvC. Some stick around, but after a few rounds of the above, they soon leave.
Some of the longer term creationists have been through this cycle numerous times, but I think breadth of interest helps tremendously. Buz, for example, has his favoured subjects of course, but he dabbles in other topics too.
There may be some creationist lurkers though, I guess. They may be deterred by the perceived treatment of those that take the step of posting in a thread.
There is another effect, that comes into many communities: Earn Your Bullshit. Longstanding members tend to get more leeway as they are community mates, possibly verging on friends. And since most longstanding members are evolutionists... This effects creationists too - people complained about Faith's indefinite suspension, and I think they would if Buz received the same.
I feel sorry for the creationists, but not too much. I've managed to stick mostly within the rules for my duration here, so I know it isn't difficult. But maybe the creationists are being hard done by. It's not difficult to see why people who think something like 'fuck you' (such as in Message 229) is acceptable might get suspended. But maybe there really is a terrible culture at work that I'm blind to. I would like for any creationist that has a genuine problem with a poster, to alert the moderators to it in the thread we have specifically designed for that purpose. We might well disagree that a problem exists, but at least you'll be doing the right thing - and it will be on the record (perfect for citing evidence later). The correct way to handle an abusive or disruptive poster is not to become more abusive and disruptive than they are. That will result in suspensions if its seen.
Finally, I agree with Percy. There is no shortage of creationists, so there should be no shortage of creationist posters. While the perception around here may deter some, the fact is that most creationists aren't really thinking about it enough in their lives to start looking for forums to post in. Without it being in the news, its in the back of their minds. Evolutionists on the other hand, are aware that creationism is still a threat that deserves at least some consistent attention.
A good number of creationists these days seem more concerned with discrediting atheism. So if they're going to sign up somewhere 'hostile' to argue their points, it'll be a skeptics or atheist website/twitter feed.

  
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