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Author Topic:   Genesis 1:1-5 — Day One
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 110 (661478)
05-06-2012 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
05-04-2012 11:44 PM


Re: The Light was Good
What question does the OP ask. It seems to me that the explicit question, namely, why there was no light when the earth was made, is actually answered by CreationJon.
It also seems clear that the OP is not an invite to discuss reasons why CreationJon's theory of origins is wrong. It's pretty clear what Genesis actually says.
So why should this thread last more than three posts before the subject is exhausted? Is there actually anything more to say that would actually be on topic?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 05-04-2012 11:44 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Jon, posted 05-06-2012 8:15 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 110 (661482)
05-06-2012 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jon
05-05-2012 11:30 AM


Re: The Light was Good
I am saying that before there were the necessary matters and energies light could not have existed.
Among the things that are mentioned in the first few verses of Genesis, which are things that must exist before light could have existed?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Jon, posted 05-05-2012 11:30 AM Jon has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 24 of 110 (661496)
05-06-2012 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jon
05-06-2012 8:15 PM


Re: The Light was Good
nor does it fit with the evidence that there cannot be light without anything for light to illuminate
Evidence? What evidence?
You yourself have not presented any evidence for the above quote proposition. What the OP uses to advance this proposition is an un-evidenced claim that does not make sense to have light before there is an earth in a universe where nothing happens without a purpose. This logic can be questioned, but before we get around to questioning the logic, we can note that the logic is argument and not evidence.
All that is required to have electromagnetic radiation in this universe is for an unbound electron to change direction, or otherwise accelerate. Is there some evidence that any such thing is missing prior to the creation of the earth? Is there any denial of the existence of electrons during the time covered by Genesis 1:1-2?
The answer is no. Other than your recitation of what Genesis says, and your desire to hold the order of creation described therein to be true, you've got nothing.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Jon, posted 05-06-2012 8:15 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Jon, posted 05-06-2012 10:34 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 110 (661500)
05-06-2012 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Jon
05-06-2012 10:34 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Which means you need first electrons (i.e., matter
I note that you skipped most of my message in order to address this part.
I also note that you have resorted back to simply quoting Genesis.
There is no argument from me regarding whether Genesis describes that the earth existed before God said let there be light. If that is your only point, and you are not challenging any scientific evidence to the contrary, then this thread has little, if any point.
Yes, the science based account does disagree with Genesis as interpreted by Creationists. Who did not know that?
For What It's Worth:
The cosmic background microwave radiation is evidence that electromagnetic radiation consistent with a temperature of around 3000K was prevalent a few hundred thousand years or so after the BB. That would be about 4.6 billion years before the sun or earth existed.
Edited by NoNukes, : FWIW

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Jon, posted 05-06-2012 10:34 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 7:57 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 110 (661522)
05-07-2012 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
05-07-2012 7:59 AM


Re: The Light was Good
Well, the simple answer is that Light was just created after many of those other things (gravity might be an exception). We have matter existing before light; maybe not all matter and certainly not in all forms, but there was matter there first, nonetheless.
When are you going to get around to the evidence? Just in case you have forgotten, let me remind you that you are posting in the science forums. Simply citing the Bible and then going on with endless speculation is not suitable here.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 7:59 AM Jon has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 110 (661523)
05-07-2012 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
05-07-2012 7:57 AM


Re: The Light was Good
Assuming a Big Bang.
For which there is a model and evidence. Where is yours?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 7:57 AM Jon has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 110 (661684)
05-09-2012 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by vimesey
05-09-2012 9:11 AM


Re: The Light was Good
then why is it not silly to suggest that those matters and energies can exist for a day or so before they get round to producing light ?
There is no need to drill down even this far. Neither the earth nor the sun are oldest collections of matter in existence. And in fact, nothing in Genesis requires any such thing. Accordingly, we need not demonstrate that light must exist before matter in order to debunk CreationJon's musings.
The link below is to an article about a gamma source that is 13.14 billion light years away from earth. Quite obviously, the electromagnetic energy from this object that has currently reached us was emitted at a time that predates the existence of earth.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/...-object-ever-seen-maybe
In fact, though, there are plenty of objects in the universe or even in our own galaxy that emit visible light that does not shine on earth. The idea that light could not exist before the earth existed because such light would have no purpose is simply not an idea worth serious consideration.
CreationJon appears to have no intention on making any attempt to defend his propositions with evidence or even with logical arguments. I would expect that real creationists would not appreciate being mocked in this manner.
If it would be silly to suggest that light can exist before various matters and energies exist
Would it? What "energies" and "matters" are referred to in the sentence above, anyway? With apologies to my least favorite Supreme Court Justice, the above sentence is just goobledygook.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by vimesey, posted 05-09-2012 9:11 AM vimesey has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 110 (661821)
05-10-2012 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Jon
05-10-2012 11:51 AM


Wha??
Let's start with photons. Do you have trouble accepting the claim that photons are required for the existence of light?
Do you know what a photon is? Because the idea that photons are a pre-cursor for light is inane.
No, light is not required for the existence of light.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Jon, posted 05-10-2012 11:51 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 110 (662224)
05-13-2012 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Jon
05-13-2012 4:34 PM


Re: The Light was Good
If we don't recognize that they are talking about years of a different length, then we will end up with numbers that are completely in contradiction to the evidence. And that just makes us look stupid.
I assure you that you needn't worry about that minor detail making you look stupid. You and ICANT are putting on quite the display.
In this post however much of your argument about time is pretty much dead on. When scientists estimate the age of the sun and earth or the universe, they are using current day units for measuring purposes only. No scientist proposes that there is any link between decay rates or the rate of expansion of the universe and a shortened rotational or revolutionary period for the earth millions/billions of years ago. Similarly, we don't believe that uranium/argon/potassium decay rates are influenced in any way by dark/light cycles or the lack thereof.
But how does people living longer correlate with the year being longer in Biblical times? Wouldn't that make the actual lifespans measured in present day units even more huge?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Jon, posted 05-13-2012 4:34 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Jon, posted 05-13-2012 7:49 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 72 of 110 (662230)
05-13-2012 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Jon
05-13-2012 7:49 PM


Re: The Light was Good
The quantum electron-entanglement paradox was unstable in these early days. The effects of time passage were (and still are) apparent in different degrees to different biological and non-biological entities. So there were people who really lived for 150 years as measured against the outside world since the time force (quantum electron-entanglement) affected various matters differently.
Is that supposed to be funny?
The problem with the above, besides the fact that it is technobable made up by you, and unsupported by either science or the Bible, is that it fails to explain why time would appear to move slowly for some purposes, and quickly for other purposes, even for apparently concurrent events. You merely assert that time behaves in such a way as to make you seem not to be stupid.
Well, your assertions are not having the intended effect. Isn't it long since time that you provided some evidence? If not, why does this thread belong in a science forum?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Jon, posted 05-13-2012 7:49 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 110 (662462)
05-15-2012 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by ICANT
05-13-2012 2:24 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Every evening (the close of a light period) and the following morning (the end of a dark period) from the end of Day One has and will be a day until the end of time as mankind knows it.
The problem with your assertion is that every single one of the combined dark/light cycles on earth during a year is of a different length. In fact, such cycled differ in length at different places on earth. The combination of the facts that the earth has an elliptical orbit in which it's orbital speed varies with position in the orbit, and the fact that the year is not composed of an integral number of days results in a situation where the sum of the day and night periods differs measurably every single day as measured at any location. So when we say that an event takes 17.14234 days, which one of those days are we talking about?
Even the mean solar day for the entire year is not of constant length, although it varies far less than does the solar day during the year.
The truth of the matter is that we don't use dark/light cycles to define the hour or any other unit of time. The units we use are roughly equivalent in duration to units based on an average or mean solar day.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ICANT, posted 05-13-2012 2:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 05-16-2012 2:23 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 110 (662558)
05-16-2012 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ICANT
05-16-2012 2:23 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Does it take 365.25 light periods regardless of their length and 365.25 dark periods regardless of their length to be a year?
I'm not going to join you in equivocating. The word day might refer to day night cycles, and it alternatively might refer to a period of time exactly 24 hours in duration. If I were referring to an event that lasted 40.2343 days, I almost certainly am using the latter meaning.
The term day can also refer to the period during a solar day in which the sun is above the horizon.
Is this the exact amount of light periods and dark periods that it takes for the Earth to revolve around the sun?
This can be answered without danger of equivocation. Of course not. 365.25 is just an approximation. A tropical year is about 365.2422 mean solar days.
The bottom line is this. We don't always time things based on solar days and day night periods. Trying to discuss duration as if we did do that is pretty silly.
ABE:
Additionally a year might be a tropical year, and it might also refer to the period of time between Jan 1, 2012 and Jan 1, 2013 in which case that particular year would be 366 days.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 05-16-2012 2:23 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by ICANT, posted 05-17-2012 11:12 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 110 (662601)
05-17-2012 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ICANT
05-17-2012 11:12 AM


Re: The Light was Good
indulge me.
Does it take exactly 23 hours and 56 minutes for the Earth to turn 360 on it axis?
Is this increasing over duration due to the Earth slowing down?
Does it then take 4 minutes for the Earth to finish turning towards the sun due to Earth's travel around the sun?
Does it make any sense to use the word "exactly" about a value that you understand to be constantly changing? Would it make sense to use the term exactly about a value that has already been rounded off. A sidereal day is currently about 4 seconds longer than the "exact" value you cite.
So no it does not take exactly 23:56 minutes for the earth to turn 360 degrees, but let's accept that value as accurate enough. The remaining time needed to finish turning towards the sun varies during the year. Accordingly some solar days are greater in length than 24 hours while others are shorter.
The 23:56 minute value is also increasing as the Earth's rotations slows. You are right about that.
But none of those things discussed above have any influence on the length of an hour, minute or second. Those quantities of duration are defined independently from the the speed of rotation of the earth. And a 24 hour day is a day independent of the actual sum of the dark/light duration measured that day.
I find myself forced to be pedantic here, because I am aware that you have some curious notions regarding time and duration. Your concept of time is incompatible with special and general relativity. Durations between events as measured in different reference frames do differ, despite your contrary beliefs. You are going to have to forgive me for not being willing to take out any time to disabuse you of your notions.
Which I refer to as a light period, regardless of the length of duration.
Maybe you are doing so here, but even the Bible is not so consistent about the term day.
quote:
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
So in Gen 1:5, "Day" refers to the light period, while "first day" refers to both morning and evening.
Is that leap year of 366 days to make up for the .2422th day per year
Not alone. 2102 being a leap year is part of a scheme to align the calendar with the orbital period of the earth. Adding a leap year every four years produces a year that averages 365.25 days. Omitting the leap year on century years divisible by 100 produces a year that averages 365.24 days, and making years divisible by 400 despite the previous rule produces a scheme with years that average 365.2425 24 hour days which turns out to be pretty close to what is desired.
But again, that is just calendar stuff. It does not affect the clock. We make changes to the calendar so that the seasons stay on relatively stable dates.
Edited by NoNukes, : Tweak
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ICANT, posted 05-17-2012 11:12 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2012 11:47 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 110 (662730)
05-18-2012 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ICANT
05-18-2012 11:47 AM


Re: The Light was Good
Are you agreeing that everything as far as time is concerned, days, week, months, and years has to be adjusted to reality?
I'm a bit confused about what you are asking me. I don't think I agree with your statement. There is more than one definition of year and day. I'm not aware that the definition of week and month are adjusted. Those things are not tied to the solar events in any way. A week is always 7, twenty four hour periods.
As for the day and year...
What is the case is that things like the length of darkness and light periods, the length of a solar day, and the length of a solar year are NOT of fixed duration. Seasons do not recur at completely regular intervals.
On the other hand, clocks when properly maintained, do measure time intervals of exactly fixed duration, and atomic clocks do so incredibly accurately.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2012 11:47 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2012 3:21 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 110 (662777)
05-18-2012 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by ICANT
05-18-2012 3:21 PM


Re: The Light was Good
So why do they have to be adjusted?
Clocks are adjusted because we humans like to keep them synchronized with natural processes that do not run at constant speed. It's entirely that simple.
Seems to me like the atomic clock is adjusted to reality. The real time that Earth revolves on it axis.
You yourself have already noted that the earth's rotation is slowing down. That acknowledgement is an admission that the earth rotation cannot be keeping "real" time.
We have leap years simply because the year is not an exact a multiple of the either a 24 hour period, or the mean solar day. None of that has anything to do with adjusting non-reality to reality.
Where do you get your notion that the earth's known to be non-uniform rotation is an indicator of real time?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2012 3:21 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2012 6:20 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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