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Author Topic:   Nature belongs to ID
Percy
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Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 4 of 146 (661516)
05-07-2012 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Wounded King
05-07-2012 9:39 AM


Wounded King writes:

It is car crash evolution - a car goes through a bush, hits a tree and ends up in a lake - the bush, the tree and the lake are objects of Nature but the car crash is not a natural process.

I think you need to explain in greater detail what point you are trying to make here. What is the unnatural 'car crash' part of evolution? Is it mutation? In what way is it unnatural?

When I was reading this part of Vanessa's post I assumed it was the old confusion of different meanings of the word natural. In one sense there's natural versus the supernatural (or the divine or any other synonymous label), while in another sense there's natural versus man-made or man-caused.

--Percy


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Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 24 of 146 (661574)
05-08-2012 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Rahvin
05-07-2012 6:16 PM


Rahvin writes:

Mutation and natural selection are also not arbitrary...

Mutation is pretty arbitrary the vast majority of the time.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Rahvin, posted 05-07-2012 6:16 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Rahvin, posted 05-08-2012 12:14 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 25 of 146 (661575)
05-08-2012 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
05-07-2012 6:23 PM


Re: Evidence for ID?
jar writes:

Sorry but belief in a god is a religion.

There are multiple definitions of religion. Granted she may have in mind the same one as you, but you don't know that yet.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 05-07-2012 6:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 05-08-2012 8:59 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 26 of 146 (661576)
05-08-2012 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by frako
05-07-2012 6:36 PM


Hi Frako

Another thing you could add about Professor Barnard's comments is that he doesn't seem to understand that what he's calling "chromosomal plasticity" is incredibly slow. He doesn't seem to understand that mutations, the ultimate source of his "chromosomal plasticity," occur at a rate of around 10-8 per nucleotide per generation. That means that on average only one nucleotide out of a hundred million has been affected by mutation in each newly born organism. This is why relatively long-lived species like reptiles, birds and mammals take at least 10's of thousands of years to form new species, while short-lived species like bacteria that reproduce several times per hour can form new species in very short periods of time, certainly within a human lifetime.

--Percy


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Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 27 of 146 (661578)
05-08-2012 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Vanessa
05-07-2012 6:48 PM


Vanessa writes:

My first argument is against the title of 'Naturalism' to explain a process that has little of anything to do with Nature.

Naturalism is the philosophy that "all phenomena can be explained in terms of natural causes and laws." (from Answers.com). That pretty much sounds like nature.

It sounds like you're here to test your arguments for ID, so you'll want to abandon untenable positions like this one as quickly as possible.

PS: You say mutation is not arbitrary, but that is the very definition of 'mutation' - accidents in DNA.

Right on!

--Percy


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 Message 17 by Vanessa, posted 05-07-2012 6:48 PM Vanessa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Vanessa, posted 05-09-2012 11:17 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 30 of 146 (661585)
05-08-2012 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
05-08-2012 8:59 AM


Re: Evidence for ID?
Hi Jar,

Sorry for my message. I cannot now for the life of me reconstruct how I must have been interpreting Vanessa's post. Apologies, etc.

--Percy


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 Message 32 by Aware Wolf, posted 05-08-2012 11:31 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 38 of 146 (661667)
05-09-2012 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Aware Wolf
05-08-2012 11:31 AM


Re: Evidence for ID?
Yes, I think you've got it, thank you. Somehow the interpretation I arrived at early in the morning had abandoned me by the time Jar replied.

--Percy


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 Message 32 by Aware Wolf, posted 05-08-2012 11:31 AM Aware Wolf has seen this message

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 39 of 146 (661669)
05-09-2012 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Rahvin
05-08-2012 12:14 PM


Hi Rahvin,

I'm afraid I can't go with your definition of guided. Within biology mutations are random with respect to fitness, and that's all that matters. I agree they're not random with regard to the laws of chemistry and physics, but it doesn't seem relevant.

--Percy


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Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 40 of 146 (661672)
05-09-2012 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Wounded King
05-08-2012 8:14 AM


Hi WK,

Haven't we had this conversation before? Multiple times?

I understand the importance you place on accuracy. Please understand the importance I place on attempting to find a level of detail where I'll be understood. There's a place in this world for both approaches.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


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Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 42 of 146 (661674)
05-09-2012 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Taz
05-08-2012 4:57 PM


For those of us with limited time, is there a minute mark in the video where we should begin watching to see an example of mutual deference.

--Percy


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 Message 34 by Taz, posted 05-08-2012 4:57 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 59 of 146 (661792)
05-10-2012 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Vanessa
05-09-2012 11:17 AM


Vanessa writes:

Sorry I can't quote with an IPad.

Sure you can, I do it all the time. I grant that it's tedious compared to a normal keyboard. You can find the square brackets by click on the ".?123", then on the "#+=" key.

I believe your definition of naturalism is incomplete - 'all phenomenon can be explained in terms of natural causes and laws'. It should add 'and came about by accident.'

Can you think of any accident that didn't follow the laws of nature?

The definition you gave presupposes the natural laws were in place and came from nothing.

Employing the laws of nature to figure things out no more presupposes where they came from than building a house presupposes where the lumber came from.

Nature develops life through predetermined systems. If you know of any life that came about without any predetermined system please tell me.

So just for example, you believe that the process of placental development and birth existed before mammals evolved?

I understand that you believe processes were designed before they were employed, but no evidence exists of this, and things that actually happened usually leave evidence behind. The evidence that is available indicates a process of gradual change over time, and that processes develop through a process of random mutation and selection of the more advantageous mutations by a process of natural selection.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Vanessa, posted 05-09-2012 11:17 AM Vanessa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Vanessa, posted 05-10-2012 12:48 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 73 of 146 (661951)
05-11-2012 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Vanessa
05-10-2012 12:48 PM


Hi Vanessa,

Here's a little more help on quoting. It isn't text between square brackets that is placed in a quote box, but text between open and close quoting codes. It is the quoting codes that must be placed between square brackets. The code for shaded quoting is "qs". To begin a quoted region you say [qs], and to end a quoted region you say [/qs], which is just the same code with a slash in front of it. For example, this:

[qs]This is the text you want to quote.[/qs]

Comes out looking like this:

This is the text you want to quote.

There's a whole bunch of codes that allow you to do things as simple as italicizing to as complex as tables:

NameLocation
BillHouston
MaryPhiladelphia

You can also place links in messages. See the Code Documentation for all the details.

--Percy


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Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 74 of 146 (661952)
05-11-2012 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Taz
05-10-2012 7:49 PM


Taz writes:

Vanessa writes:

Thank you Taz for the video. It is not surprising there is civility between people who agree with each other.


I think you missed my point completely. My point wasn't about civility. My point was about humility.

I think the point Vanessa was making is that similar thinking experts in such settings generally display the same kind of humble deference seen in the video, whether the field is science or religion or economics or whatever. I recall seeing a debate between Dead Sea Scroll scholars with different areas of specialty, and it was much the same thing. I bet if you put Duane Gish (creationism) on a stage with Stephen C. Meyer (ID) that you'd get much the same kind of deferential humility.

But if you put Neil de Grasse Tyson on a stage with Duane Gish I bet you'd find little humility or deference from either side. While Tyson would likely readily concede what we do not know, he would probably be brutally assertive about what he believes we do know based upon evidence.

But while I do agree with Vanessa on this narrow point, I think your point is the more important one:

That's the point I was trying to make. Real honest to god scientists are very humble and they know exactly where the limits of their knowledge lie. Creationists act like they know everything.

Well said. Real scientists have a pretty good awareness of what they don't know. The problem with creationists and IDists is that they have no awareness of when they don't know what they're talking about, and as we've learned here over and over again, it can take forever to box a know-nothing into a corner.

--Percy


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 Message 68 by Taz, posted 05-10-2012 7:49 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 76 of 146 (661987)
05-11-2012 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Dr Adequate
05-11-2012 7:11 AM


Dr Adequate writes:

OK, I'm done praying, I'll go back to sarcasm. You have such an enormous knowledge of the Cambrian Explosion that you can use your immense knowledge of this subject to prove that biologists are all wrong about biology, the subject that they know about and you don't. So please tell us, in your own words, what the C.E. actually was.

I actually thought Vanessa's provided a great example of "a great leap forward in complexity and diversity" in the Cambrian Explosion because of all the new body plans that appeared, but it doesn't align with her argument because it isn't normally considered an example of punctuated equilibrium.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Correct the attribution.


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 Message 78 by Taz, posted 05-11-2012 2:51 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20822
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 81 of 146 (662009)
05-11-2012 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Taz
05-11-2012 2:51 PM


Taz writes:

I think Vanessa would be amazed if we point out to her the actual time period, like how long, the cambrian explosion actually took place.

Yes, I think you're right, but we should also tell her the history of our understanding of the Cambrian Explosion. That when first discovered it did literally look like a sudden explosion of life in Cambrian layers as compared to earlier layers, hence the name. It was only with improved dating and the discovery of softer-bodied predecessors that we came to understand how long and drawn out the Cambrian "explosion" was.

--Percy


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Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 3:20 PM Percy has replied

  
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