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Author Topic:   Nature belongs to ID
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1096
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 118 of 146 (663218)
05-22-2012 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Vanessa
05-22-2012 11:45 AM


Re: work in progress
Hi there Vanessa,

Vanessa writes:

Like saying new computer programs are developed by random mutation in the computer code of existing programs - like saying my media player will one day evolve into publishing program simply by me using it.

Well, not like that really, no. We observe that genetic mutations occur in reproduction of life. (My dad was a veterinary surgeon, and once put down a kitten that was born with two heads. Sad, but very much observed). We do not observe that computer programs reproduce and occasionally mutate in so doing.

Vanessa writes:

I claim 'certainty is the enemy of science'.

Interestingly, RAZD was arguing precisely that science is not certain - we observe, predict, and then either discard a theory, or determine that it seems to represent the best explanation available to us of the phenomena which we observe. As I understand it, scientists are not certain - they are sufficiently convinced to move scientific enquiry and advances in technology forward, but they are always open to improving their understanding.

Vanessa writes:

We should not be content to accept a collection of theories to explain the evolution of the solar system, another for the beginnings of life on Earth and yet another for evolution of life.

Well, there are obviously efforts ongoing to identify a unified grand theory which would unite quantum and Newtonian physics (I really hope I got that right - apologies to the scientists if I didn't), but in broad terms, science in its widest sense will always be a patchwork - the explanations of how a cell functions; of how electrons (sort of) orbit an atom's nucleus; of how gravity bends light; of how plate tectonics create earthquakes, will all be different from each other. Connected, yes, at a very deep and complex level, but still resembling a patchwork. There is nothing which says that a single, smooth, unified theory of all of existence should look neat and shiny - it could well look like a poor patchwork quilt of life.

Vanessa writes:

I am much more interested in finding the truth.

I think that a lot of people try to get away from the word "truth", because it always sounds like it is spelled with a capital "T". From reading the posts of most of the scientists on here, they seem to be interested in finding out the answers to "what", "how", "when", "how much" and similar questions. It is a matter of trying to understand what is, rather than trying to determine an ultimate reason for everything. It's a subtle distinction, but looking for "the truth" suggests too many preconceptions - let's just find out what is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Vanessa, posted 05-22-2012 11:45 AM Vanessa has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Vanessa, posted 05-22-2012 5:47 PM vimesey has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1096
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 129 of 146 (663258)
05-22-2012 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Vanessa
05-22-2012 5:47 PM


Re: work in progress
Hi again Vanessa,

If there was one theory that could explain the evolution of the solar system (vital for the development of life), the beginning of life and how it developed - would this not be preferable? If we could replace a multitude of theories with one, wouldn't it be better?

This is the heart of where we differ. It's not a question of what might be "preferable" or "better" - it's a question of what actually is. As I understand it, scientists aren't looking for something which is more satisfying - they're looking at the evidence to understand how things actually work, pure and simple.

The answers may appear messy; astonishingly complicated and beyond most people's abilities to process (mine very much included, when it comes to higher mathematics and quantum mechanics for example), but I don't refute them because I feel that there must be some other explanation which is "preferable" or "better". Thinking that there must be something better is a preconception.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Vanessa, posted 05-22-2012 5:47 PM Vanessa has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Vanessa, posted 05-22-2012 6:45 PM vimesey has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1096
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


(5)
Message 132 of 146 (663264)
05-22-2012 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Vanessa
05-22-2012 6:45 PM


Re: work in progress
In the 1980s in the Far East I learned a different explanation of evolution. A compelling and clever theory that did not rely on meteor strikes or mutations as mechanisms of development. It is based on evidence and rational argument. It made predictions which at the time did not seem possible, yet they have come true and continue to do so. I argue from a position of knowledge.

You mentioned this over on the other thread, and said you'd set out this theory for us. Please do - and could you please also set out the evidence you refer to ? I won't be able to do a great deal with it myself, I suspect, but the scientists on here will need to review your evidence to assess the theory.

Thanks.

vimesey


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Vanessa, posted 05-22-2012 6:45 PM Vanessa has not yet responded

  
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