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Author Topic:   Physical Laws ....What if they were different before?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 7 of 309 (662104)
05-12-2012 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by foreveryoung
05-11-2012 10:44 PM


Another reality?
I'll let others comment on the physical laws stuff for awhile. If cavediver or Son Goku don't show up, I'll bring the physics later. I'd likely start with a discussion of SN1987A.

But I did want to comment on this alternate reality stuff, because I see a contradiction. You postulate an alternate reality that is undetectable, yet has noticeable and significant impact on this universe. I think such a concept is an oxymoron. Non-physical beings with a physical impact sounds like just magic to me.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by foreveryoung, posted 05-11-2012 10:44 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by foreveryoung, posted 05-15-2012 9:10 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 309 (662436)
05-15-2012 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by foreveryoung
05-15-2012 9:10 PM


Re: Another reality?
Not magic at all. It is quite simple. The alternate reality existed before the physical reality. The alternate reality created the physical reality simply by commanding matter into existence and then commanding that matter to follow some physical laws that were decided by beings in that alternate reality.

How is commanding matter into existence not magic simply by nature of who does the commanding or when the commanding was done? I think you are trying hard to make a difference where none exists.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by foreveryoung, posted 05-15-2012 9:10 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by foreveryoung, posted 05-15-2012 9:21 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 309 (662444)
05-15-2012 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by foreveryoung
05-15-2012 9:21 PM


Re: Another reality?
It is magic to you because commanding matter into existence in the PHYSICAL reality is MAGIC. Commanding matter into existence in the supernatural reality is simply the way things are done there. They don't have the same rules to abide by as we have here.

That's magic with star trek technobabble attached to it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by foreveryoung, posted 05-15-2012 9:21 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 309 (662458)
05-15-2012 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by godsriddle
05-15-2012 10:38 PM


Re: first assumption
Scientists seem mathematics as empiricism,

As best as I can tell, this statement is nonsensical and untrue. Nobody considers mathematics to be empirical. Mathematics is used to model, to encapsulate the logic of an argument or the description of a theory, and to make predictions from a hypothesis, among other things. Accordingly, scientists rightly find mathematics useful as an aid to communication and thinking.

But nobody [make than nobody credible] believes that mathematics is a substitute for actual observation.

If you believe that there is an improper use of mathematics in science, I'd appreciate reading your citation of an example of such a misuse. Perhaps then I will understand why your original statement is not pure nonsense.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by godsriddle, posted 05-15-2012 10:38 PM godsriddle has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 309 (662460)
05-15-2012 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by godsriddle
05-15-2012 10:38 PM


Re: first assumption
We confirm this in billions of ancient galaxies whose atoms shone at tiny fractions of the frequencies of modern atoms.

Really? Which galaxies have atoms that emit light at tiny fractions of the frequencies of their modern counterparts? My understanding is that the largest red shifts ever measured cannot be characterized as shifting visible light by this amount.

See below for some example observations and calculations:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/astro/redshf.html

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by godsriddle, posted 05-15-2012 10:38 PM godsriddle has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 309 (662492)
05-16-2012 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by godsriddle
05-16-2012 12:22 AM


Re: first assumption
I agree that the ANGLE and the DELAY in days from the reflected light from the ring around the star shows how many MODERN DAYS the light was in transit. It says nothing about how long ancient days were or how fast the speed of light is.

It is interesting enough to know that the speed of light in as measured using modern days is a constant. That means that when we measure the distance to objects in modern units, we can know that the distance to those objects is enough to prove that light from those objects could not have reached us in only 6000 years.

Note that the distance to distant objects is NOT measured using the speed of light at all, but is determined independently of the speed of light. With few exceptions, we cannot obtain any direct measure of the flight time of photons from distant astronomical objects. So your purported linkage is simply wrong.

1) The speed of light is DEFINED as a constant. Scientists use the notion that cesium atoms keep on ticking at the same rate to DEFINE the length of a meter and then circle back to claim they measured a constant speed of light.

There is a sense in which the above statement is correct, and another in which it is completely wrong and off-base.

While it is true that the current definition of the meter is based on a a distance light travels, that current definition is not the definition that was in use when the constancy of the speed of light was observed experimentally back in the late 19th century. So we know that your conclusion that constancy of the speed of light in a vacuum is only an artifact of our current method of defining the meter is completely wrong. We know from history that constancy of the speed of light in a vacuum was established first, and only then used to define the meter.

We also know that making the assumption that the speed of light is constant and that the laws of physics are invariant in form, with no other assumptions, leads directly to the predictions of special relativity which have been verified in countless experiments. So we are not simply guessing and making assumptions regarding the constancy of the speed of light. We know.

As for your observation of local clocks nonsense. We have observed that even local clocks (meaning clocks at relatively short distances) vary in rate as predicted by special and general relativity. That is, we know from observation that that clock frequencies do vary both because of the velocity of the source relative to us, and because of difference in gravitational field potential for distances of only a few hundred feet. So we know that the variation in the speed of clocks as observed from our reference frame is not simply a function of distance. We also have observed that for those clocks which appear to run slow in our inertial reference frame, do not seem to run slow from reference frames in which they are at rest.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by godsriddle, posted 05-16-2012 12:22 AM godsriddle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by godsriddle, posted 05-16-2012 1:38 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 309 (662560)
05-16-2012 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by godsriddle
05-16-2012 1:38 PM


Re: first assumption
The atomic clocks evidently accelerate along with the accelerating orbits as the space matter takes up increases RELATIONALLY.

Well no. You are making this stuff up.

Gravity is not a perpetual motion force as Newton and Einstein imagined.

Einstein did not imagine that gravity was a force at all. Where are you getting this nonsense?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by godsriddle, posted 05-16-2012 1:38 PM godsriddle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by godsriddle, posted 05-17-2012 4:57 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 60 of 309 (662579)
05-17-2012 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by godsriddle
05-17-2012 4:57 AM


Re: first assumption
Why would I want to make up things that are supported by simple, visible evidence? The light from billions of galaxies shows that atoms are always changing themselves relationally. Not a single ancient galaxies shines with the light frequencies of modern atoms and the differences are often associated with distance (the past).

I don't know your motivation, but your nonsense is not supported by observation or evidence.

As a matter of fact, galaxies, as viewed from earth, may show either red shift or blue shift. And in fact there are galaxies which present both red shift and blue shift (and of course no shift at all) from different portions.

The Andromeda galaxy is 2.6 million light years away from earth and yet exhibits a blue shift. That alone ought to cause you to do some re-thinking.

The redshift and blueshift of distance galaxies is well understood, and predicted by real cosmology including general relativity. On the other hand, by your own admission, your nonsense posturings do not explain ancient blue-shifted galaxies. You are spouting nonsense.

He imagined that the vacuum of space time is bent by the Sun and the earth follows the local bent rails in the vacuum.

No Einstein did not imagine that vacuum was bent. What would that even mean?

No one has ever ... directly detected any gravity.

So what? Have you ever fallen while skating and hurt your boom-boom? Did you really mean to talk about gravity waves?

Both Einstein and Newton believed that static matter does enormous amounts of work bending the path of the Earth without changing anything about itself. This is nothing but a mathematical version of perpetual motion.

You are clueless. Absolutely clueless.

Have you ever calculated the net work involved in causing a body to travel in a Newtonian circular orbit? As a hint, the body returns each orbit to positions having exactly the same gravitational potential with the body having the same kinetic energy on each orbit. The calculation should not take you too long. Answer in ergs, please.

Lets be brutally frank about Einstein's theory.

Let's be brutally frank about godsriddle. People with goofy, but hard to disprove crank physics formulations can be found all over the internet. You have not yet managed to attain the loft status as certified internet crank, despite having your own crank's page. Your nonsense is easily identified as nonsense.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by godsriddle, posted 05-17-2012 4:57 AM godsriddle has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 309 (662580)
05-17-2012 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
05-17-2012 9:05 AM


Re: So let's see if we can make any statements with confidence
but so far the basic laws all seem to be the same no matter how far back in time we look until we reach the Singularity where we find something unrecognizable, something totally devoid of life, planets, stars, galaxies, elements, matter

You have got a bit over-zealous here. We cannot "see" this far back using any known means.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 05-17-2012 9:05 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 05-17-2012 9:35 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 309 (662589)
05-17-2012 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
05-17-2012 9:35 AM


Re: So let's see if we can make any statements with confidence
We can get pretty close. Just how close to the singularity is the CMBR?

Time wise, I'd suggest that the CMBR dates from several hundred thousand years after the period of huge expansion from whatever was present initially. Prior to that time the universe would have been opaque.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 05-17-2012 9:35 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 05-17-2012 11:44 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 309 (662595)
05-17-2012 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
05-17-2012 11:44 AM


Re: So let's see if we can make any statements with confidence
Your claim was that we can see the singularity. Even 13 billion years ago is hundreds of millions of years after the big bang.

I'm not even willing to commit to there ever having been a singularity. The universe was once hotter and littler, but who knows what existed at T=0? I surely don't.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 05-17-2012 11:44 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 05-17-2012 11:59 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 309 (662634)
05-17-2012 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
05-17-2012 11:59 AM


Re: So let's see if we can make any statements with confidence
I am using the term singularity as that point where the current laws simply don't work, a universe quite unlike what we see today.

Uh, say what??

but so far the basic laws all seem to be the same no matter how far back in time we look until we reach the Singularity where we find something unrecognizable, something totally devoid of life, planets, stars, galaxies, elements, matter

Can we, in fact, look back to find something devoid of matter? Does a plasma of ionized particles not count as matter? Because we cannot look back past the point when matter became largely un-ionized and transparent to light.

That would have been well after any singularity, as the term might be understood by anyone who was not reading the face saving redefinition of the term you are using, would have existed.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 05-17-2012 11:59 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 309 (662819)
05-19-2012 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Dr Adequate
05-18-2012 9:28 PM


Re: first assumption
A phrase which gets zero google hits, and is therefore probably not exactly what anyone believes.

You didn't encounter Mr. riiddle's crank page? This tripe is all over it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-18-2012 9:28 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 309 (662969)
05-20-2012 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Panda
05-19-2012 9:36 PM


Re: first assumption
There is not a shred of evidence that time has an actuality. It exists in our minds, as Solomon explained 3,000 years ago.

Hilarious!


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Panda, posted 05-19-2012 9:36 PM Panda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by godsriddle, posted 05-23-2012 12:20 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 152 of 309 (664162)
05-29-2012 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Theodoric
05-29-2012 2:25 PM


Re: question unanswered ...
No one wants to go to your blog to read your response.

FWIW, I did follow the link.

The link leads to more of exactly the same stuff about atoms shining with a different light, galaxies connected with rivers of hydrogen crap that you can read over and over again in the Riddler's posts here.

Please don't encourage him to paste that tripe into yet another EvC post.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Theodoric, posted 05-29-2012 2:25 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
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