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Author Topic:   Denouncing religions ? [New to debate]
jar
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Posts: 31193
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 29 of 89 (389741)
03-15-2007 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by MadaManga
03-15-2007 7:49 AM


The American goverment has no influence on what subjects are taught in American schools?

That is almost correct. The Federal government has some ability to regulate what is taught but there is no Federal Curriculum. In the US the content of what is taught lies in the State testing agencies, the various accreditation agencies and the local school board.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by MadaManga, posted 03-15-2007 7:49 AM MadaManga has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31193
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 31 of 89 (389753)
03-15-2007 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by MadaManga
03-15-2007 11:28 AM


Education in the US
The Education system in the US is actually pretty messy. First off, it is driven at the local level, not even state level.

In most areas, the local school board is a political position. Generally folk run for office just as they would for a position on the City Council, but they can also be appointed or hired. There is NO uniform method across the whole US. See Wiki

Can people petition the State testing agencies, the various accreditation agencies and the local school board to add new subjects.

And if they can, do they? How much support would a subject have to have before it was supported.

Yes, that can and does happen. Often it requires little support but enthusiastic supporters. The Christian Right has made a concerted effort to have people elected to the school boards and to influence the curriculum that way.

Remember, of the three controls, two are after the fact. The state simply tests and it is the results from the standardized tests that counts. And accrediting agencies can also be manipulated. For example, when no agencies would accept Biblical Creationism, the Morris simply created a new Accrediting Agency to get their colleges certified.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by MadaManga, posted 03-15-2007 11:28 AM MadaManga has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31193
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 33 of 89 (389792)
03-15-2007 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by MadaManga
03-15-2007 12:48 PM


Re: Education in the US
So it's fairly safe to say that unless a law is passed making the centralized American goverment in control of American education, then the Creationism V Evolution issue in America's education will never be resolved.

And it is not clear that such a law could even be passed in the US without changing the Constitution.

There is no obtainable &/or substantial means of resolving this issue with the education system as it currently stands.

There is the same tactics used to support Biblical Creationism. Those who support as one example, the teaching of the Theory of Evolution can also run for those school board positions.

But again, even that only covers one segment of education, although admittedly the largest segment. That is the Public Education schools.

There are additional education systems in the US. There are private schools, often associated with a single denomination or even a single church. What is taught in those schools is totally under the control of the school and even the local school boards have no say.

Then there is the growing trend of "Home Schooling" where there really are no standards or oversight.

So is the education system to blame for this entire issue (in education) even occuring?

Yes and no.

As with so many things, the issue goes back to one of efficiency vs freedom. In the US the emphasis has always been on minimizing the power of a central government at the expense of efficiency.

The result is, as in our education system, often messy, but for the most part, it works. Just as those supporting Evolution (as just one example) cannot enforce such a position, those supporting Biblical Creationism cannot enforce their position.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31193
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 36 of 89 (389819)
03-15-2007 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by MadaManga
03-15-2007 5:44 AM


Re: Something truely unbelievable - no RE
And I'm guessing that in the Church run schools they only teach the religion of the church.

That of course is only true in those church schools that are part of the mechanism of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

You need to remember that almost, not quite all but almost all religious schools in the US that were started in the last 50 years are simply avoidance schools. There sole purpose is to avoid the student being exposed to some knowledge.

As I said, that is not true of all the religious schools in the US but it is common enough that you can call it near fact.

The few religious schools that do NOT fall in the category of avoidance schools will teach sacred studies and teach other religions on an equal footing with the affiliated religion.

See this discussion on whether or not Sacred Studies should be part of a curriculum.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by MadaManga, posted 03-15-2007 5:44 AM MadaManga has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31193
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 37 of 89 (389824)
03-15-2007 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
03-15-2007 4:45 PM


not even close to true.
But our court systems in the past 55 years have interpreted that to mean freedom from religion, that the government could not sponsor any program or teaching that refereed to God or Religion. Because of that no prayer, no bible, no religion classes in school. Remember this is my opinion.

That may well be your opinion, may even be what you were taught, but it is not even close to being true.

Of course religion classes can be held in a school, even a public school. So far I know of no cases where a comparative religion course itself has been a problem. What is a problem is HOW some such courses have been taught. Too often the teachers were ignorant of the subject matter and approached the subject in a biased manner instead of a neutral one.

What is unconstitutional is for the government to aid or establish one religion over another.

For example, a course that taught the Bible as historical fact would be illegal. If the course taught that the Flood happened or that the burning bush was fact, that would and should be illegal.

On the other hand, if the same material was covered by saying "Some Christians believe the story of Noah's Flood actually happened." it would be acceptable.

A comparative religion course, one that simply taught the history and tenets of different religions and treated all equally would also be acceptable.

In addition, Bible Study Clubs and organizations have been found to be Constitutional many times and it is only when they try to impose their beliefs on others that any issues arise.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 03-15-2007 4:45 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31193
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 39 of 89 (389843)
03-15-2007 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ICANT
03-15-2007 6:54 PM


Re: not even close to true.
Maybe in some places. But I am speaking from my experience in school, in the 50's.

It was CERTAINLY true in the 50s. In fact during the 50s they could even have taught the Bible as FACT.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ICANT, posted 03-15-2007 6:54 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ICANT, posted 03-15-2007 7:27 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31193
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 41 of 89 (389854)
03-15-2007 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ICANT
03-15-2007 7:27 PM


Re: not even close to true.
Well, that may well have been the case in Greenville, Fla back in 1954-1957 but if so, it was just a local incident.

It is certainly not an issue of Christians vs Evolution, and if your teachers refused to teach evolution it was not because they were Christians but rather that they were simply ignorant.

At about the same period I went from a public school setting where Bible studies were taught in a public school, to a Christian School where evolution and Sacred Studies were taught.

The differences were that in the public school the Bible was taught as fact, while in the Christian School Sacred studies involved learning the actual tenets of other religions from a neutral perspective.

Granted there is today a Christian Cult of Ignorance and most of the Christian schools created in the last fifty years are dedicated to promoting and codifying ignorance.

The fact that you can say "We did not study evolution as my teachers were all Christians and refused to teach it.", is an indication that religion was allowed to control content during the period. The problem with that is that it is not a religious issue but rather of people teaching falsehoods and using religion as a justification for their behavior.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31193
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 43 of 89 (389873)
03-16-2007 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by MadaManga
03-16-2007 9:33 AM


interference.
Were you replying to me?

You said:

The Goverment's stance of never having religion(s) mentioned in school is interference. They interfered with people's right to information about religions not from their local area. They are aiding the local religion dispite jar's claim that

jar writes:


What is unconstitutional is for the government to aid or establish one religion over another.

Actually, the 1st. Amendment had as one of its purposes, protecting regional religions. Several of the Colonies here had been established based around differing religions. For example, Maryland was nominally a refuge for Roman Catholics, Pennsylvania had been founded as a refuge for Quakers, Massachusetts was Puritan while Virginia was mostly COE and Presbyterian.

The people who founded and initially inhabited those colonies had seen and known of the religious persecutions that had happened in England and Europe and were set on protecting their particular faith.

The 1st. Amendment was a necessary compromise to persuade the various colonies to unite. It was an assurance that the Central Government would not impose some other regions religious bias on all of the colonies. Without that assurance, it is unlikely that many of the States would have ratified the initial Constitution.

ICANT claimed:

ICANT writes:

Our fore fathers put in our constitution a phrase "freedom of religion". Which I always thought meant that people could believe as they pleased without interference from the government.

But our court systems in the past 55 years have interpreted that to mean freedom from religion

That is often claimed from the pulpits of the Christian Cult of Ignorance, but in fact is simply untrue.

Back for a moment to the messy way that we run education here in the US.

For the most part, public schools in the US are funded locally. They are NOT paid for at the Federal level although there are supplemental Federal funds directed to particular programs. The basic funding for public schools is a local tax system, most often a property tax.

This leads to great disparity in the funds available for a school from district to district. Schools in more affluent areas have more funds for teachers and infrastructure than schools in less affluent districts.

Again, in the US, the public schools are very much local schools, and as such, they reflect the population of the school district.

The courts do not and have not interpreted the 1st. Amendment to Freedom From Religion.

Sorry but need to step back into history mode for a moment to hopefully show more of how the somewhat messy US system works.

The 1st. Amendment was related to the establishment of a National Religion only. It said that the Federal Government could not impose a Federal, a National religion on the States. The 14th. Amendment extended protection beyond the State level to the individual.

Section 1 of the 14th. Amendment says:

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

It is the highlighted portions of the 14th. Amendment that are actually key.

What the courts have said is that favoring the locally dominate religion over the minority religions in an area denies people equal protection under the law. The reasoning is that public schools are part of the State Government since they are funded by local taxes and overall administration is through State and local governments.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by MadaManga, posted 03-16-2007 9:33 AM MadaManga has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by MadaManga, posted 03-16-2007 11:16 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31193
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 45 of 89 (389886)
03-16-2007 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by MadaManga
03-16-2007 11:16 AM


Re: interference.
How does that mean local religions are allowed "immunity" from having the facts of other religions taught at school.

It doesn't.

I realise "immunity" was a key word in the 14th Amentment, but if you take to mean the goverment has to enforce having no other religion mentioned then, the 14th amendment would contradict the 1st - not aiding a religion.

Immunity is mentioned in the 14th. Amendment as something which cannot be abridged. If you will read the whole US Constitution you will find that there are some basic immunities established, such as search and seizure and quartering of troops, confiscation of property without due recourse.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by MadaManga, posted 03-16-2007 11:16 AM MadaManga has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31193
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 74 of 89 (392226)
03-29-2007 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ICANT
03-29-2007 9:46 PM


Re: Denouncing religions
I would include that from what I read evolutionists are trying to prove all religion incorrect.

Of course that has long been proven false. There is no conflict between evolution and religion including Christianity. It is only an issue between the Christian Cult of Ignorance and other such cults and the real world.

Once again. There is absolutely NO evidence that evolutionists are trying to prov all religion wrong and absolute proof that many evolutionists are religious and even Christian.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31193
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 81 of 89 (392326)
03-30-2007 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ICANT
03-29-2007 11:54 PM


Re: Denouncing religions
What I believe=what I believe

The question is, why do you continue to believe something that can and has been proven false?

You said:

I would include that from what I read evolutionists are trying to prove all religion incorrect.

Yet I have posted links for you to the absolute proof that that statement is false.

Again, here is yet more such proof.

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children.

That is from an open letter currently endorsed and signed by over 10,000 US Christian Clergy and the full letter can be read here.

So direct question. Why do you continue to believe that which has been proven false?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ICANT, posted 03-29-2007 11:54 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 03-30-2007 11:45 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31193
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 83 of 89 (392337)
03-30-2007 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
03-30-2007 11:45 AM


Re: Denouncing religions
What makes you think because 10,611 clergy have signed a letter makes something I believe false. I said that from what I read on this forum evolutionists are trying to prove all religion incorrect.

Simple logic and honesty prove that what you believe is false.

You said evolutionists are trying to prove all religion is false. I happen to be both a Christian and Evolutionist. My simple existence proves your belief false.

However, it is also possible that I might be an outlier, a statistical anomaly, so I provided additional evidence, a list of over 10,000 other US Evolutionists who not only are not out to prove all religions wrong but whose profession is actually supporting religion.

Evolution has nothing to do with religion.

The Theory of Evolution does not in any way relate to religion.

Evolutionists in general are not out to prove religion is wrong.

There may well be individuals who are trying to prove religion wrong, but if so that is unrelated to whether or not they accept evolution.

So once again, why do you not only continue to believe something that is proven false, but to espouse such a false doctrine?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 03-30-2007 11:45 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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